RUST murder By accident? / Did NRA training Cause the Rust Accident?

[theprestige]

Yes but 5 minutes with a real spent cartridge does it

The armorer actually doing her job does it even better, without any of this rigamarole.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There are forms of these "dud" cartridges that don't explode at all and are completely reusable, right? If they cost a bit more than a live round that would not be an obstacle. I don't exactly know what I'm looking at but I see dummy rounds at Amazon for one or two dollars apiece.

Yes, Google 'Snap Caps,'

 

[Andy_Ross]

The armorer actually doing her job does it even better, without any of this rigamarole.

But as this incident shows, that can't be relied on.

 

[theprestige]

But as this incident shows, that can't be relied on.

The way this incident is described, I'm not sure they even went as far as relying on the armorer. This seems like it was more an exercise in ticking the box than an attempt to establish a reliable safety system.

All that was needed was for the person in charge of the barn door to close it before the horse escaped. All this rigamarole about a different breed of horse, or putting the door on tracks instead of hinges, is entirely beside the point.

 

[arayder]

Yes, Google 'Snap Caps,'

The snap caps I have seen are red. I would imagine that a director with an eye for detail would want the parts of the cartridge that show (if you look really hard), the rim in the back of the cylinder and the bullet in the front to be painted so as to look genuine.

I am just blowing smoke here but if the cartridges were repainted to look real it would fit with my theory that an actor could look at a "hot" revolver and upon being told the gun was safe believe that it was so, since the dummy rounds or snap caps were remade to look real.

Just a thought.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 184 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The way this incident is described, I'm not sure they even went as far as relying on the armorer. This seems like it was more an exercise in ticking the box than an attempt to establish a reliable safety system.

All that was needed was for the person in charge of the barn door to close it before the horse escaped. All this rigamarole about a different breed of horse, or putting the door on tracks instead of hinges, is entirely beside the point.

have you seen the price for lumber recently? barn doors aren't free!

 

[erwinl]

The snap caps I have seen are red. I would imagine that a director with an eye for detail would want the parts of the cartridge that show (if you look really hard), the rim in the back of the cylinder and the bullet in the front to be painted so as to look genuine.

I am just blowing smoke here but if the cartridges were repainted to look real it would fit with my theory that an actor could look at a "hot" revolver and upon being told the gun was safe believe that it was so, since the dummy rounds or snap caps were remade to look real.

Just a thought.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 184 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

If the sizes of the dummies were different from real cartridges and the props used would be modified to only accept these differently sized dummies, a problem/error like this would be impossible, not even if the armourer in question had a bit of an 'off day'.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

If the sizes of the dummies were different from real cartridges and the props used would be modified to only accept these differently sized dummies, a problem/error like this would be impossible, not even if the armourer in question had a bit of an 'off day'.

If you replaced the primer with green plastic an accident like this is also Impossible, has anyone else read the search Warrant for Baldwin's phone?
The Armour stated their were Wanky Rounds in the Dummies, and that she didn't check the gun much after lunch because it was in a safe, that other people had access to the safe, and she didn't believe anyone would bring a live round on set.
What we can determine is the sear was not busted during the time the Amourer loaded the last round at half Cock. That makes Baldwin's claim suspicious unless someone loaded in a live Round and dropped the gun, or someone loaded in a live round and rigged the gun.
So either Baldwin is Lying, or the Gun is broken, or the gun was maliciously rigged.
To be broken the gun would have had to be dropped while in a notch, safety half Cock, or third Notch, and it has to be dropped directly on the hammer on a hard surface.
Guns were disabled by Banging them, hammer first at half cock on rail road tracks, in Army Trials to test the sears in the 1800s.

 

[erwinl]

If you replaced the primer with green plastic an accident like this is also Impossible, has anyone else read the search Warrant for Baldwin's phone?
The Armour stated their were Wanky Rounds in the Dummies, and that she didn't check the gun much after lunch because it was in a safe, that other people had access to the safe, and she didn't believe anyone would bring a live round on set.
What we can determine is the sear was not busted during the time the Amourer loaded the last round at half Cock. That makes Baldwin's claim suspicious unless someone loaded in a live Round and dropped the gun, or someone loaded in a live round and rigged the gun.
So either Baldwin is Lying, or the Gun is broken, or the gun was maliciously rigged.
To be broken the gun would have had to be dropped while in a notch, safety half Cock, or third Notch, and it has to be dropped directly on the hammer on a hard surface.
Guns were disabled by Banging them, hammer first at half cock on rail road tracks, in Army Trials to test the sears in the 1800s.

But then your starting position is still going from a working cartridge and a real weapon.

If these are omitted from the process, then it wouldn't matter if the armourer was lackluster in its duties, whether a safety was damaged/broken or not and so on.

The primairy check would have to be, whether the prop (both cartridge and gun) used was one of the permanently disabled kinds and something of a mark, which could be easily felt, would be more than enough for that. Possibly something more than only this as a check, but you hopefully got the picture.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

But then your starting position is still going from a working cartridge and a real weapon.

If these are omitted from the process, then it wouldn't matter if the armourer was lackluster in its duties, whether a safety was damaged/broken or not and so on.

The primairy check would have to be, whether the prop (both cartridge and gun) used was one of the permanently disabled kinds and something of a mark, which could be easily felt, would be more than enough for that. Possibly something more than only this as a check, but you hopefully got the picture.

Gun people will still want to make movies with real guns and you will never stop them, they will claim it's art protected by free speech.

 

[erwinl]

Gun people will still want to make movies with real guns and you will never stop them, they will claim it's art protected by free speech.

And why should we listen to them?
Lots of things in movies are fake, like explosions, stunts in general, money and phone numbers used. The way they even speak to eachother (especially those movies where they only speak in one liners) and that is alright.
Why do guns have to be an exception and positively have to be real?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And why should we listen to them?
Lots of things in movies are fake, like explosions, stunts in general, money and phone numbers used. The way they even speak to eachother (especially those movies where they only speak in one liners) and that is alright.
Why do guns have to be an exception and positively have to be real?

Because gun nuts want guns, just look at all the videos over this accidental shooting- Homicide.

 

[erwinl]

Because gun nuts want guns, just look at all the videos over this accidental shooting- Homicide.

Yes, I know gun nuts want guns. That is what makes them gun nuts.

For the industry that is acting stories for on the big screen, there is no single good reason to use real weapons and real cartridges (in order to to make dummies). Not if there are alternatives that can look exactly like the real ones.

 

[Dr.Sid]

If the sizes of the dummies were different from real cartridges and the props used would be modified to only accept these differently sized dummies, a problem/error like this would be impossible, not even if the armourer in question had a bit of an 'off day'.

It's usual to use gun with barrel obstruction in movies. Yet this one wasn't. It was 100% working gun, and was used with live ammo day prior.
So yet again, it's not problem of no options being available. It's problem of nobody giving a F.

 

[arayder]

The snap caps I have seen are red. I would imagine that a director with an eye for detail would want the parts of the cartridge that show (if you look really hard), the rim in the back of the cylinder and the bullet in the front to be painted so as to look genuine.

I am just blowing smoke here but if the cartridges were repainted to look real it would fit with my theory that an actor could look at a "hot" revolver and upon being told the gun was safe believe that it was so, since the dummy rounds or snap caps were remade to look real.

Just a thought.

If the sizes of the dummies were different from real cartridges and the props used would be modified to only accept these differently sized dummies, a problem/error like this would be impossible, not even if the armourer in question had a bit of an 'off day'.

Yes, that would work. But the only challenge then would be using look alike guns to film scenes in which blanks are used simulate live rounds. The film makers could have different cylinders which they could install (it aint' that difficult) when they want to use blanks they could. But, then you are back to a situation where somehow a live round can be put in the cylinder.

As couple of other posters have commented the way around all this is to control the presence of live rounds on the set.

The tale is that in the old days of westerns the colt single action was popular among film makers because it could function with dummies, blanks and live rounds. If you watch old westerns you'd think it was the only gun in the old west.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 185 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yes, that would work. But the only challenge then would be using look alike guns to film scenes in which blanks are used simulate live rounds. The film makers could have different cylinders which they could install (it aint' that difficult) when they want to use blanks they could. But, then you are back to a situation where somehow a live round can be put in the cylinder.

As couple of other posters have commented the way around all this is to control the presence of live rounds on the set.

The tale is that in the old days of westerns the colt single action was popular among film makers because it could function with dummies, blanks and live rounds. If you watch old westerns you'd think it was the only gun in the old west.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 185 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

I think it had more to do with you could then pick up a single action Colt for five Bucks army surplus in 1911 so the prop houses bought tons of them and used them until the mechanisms wore out, and wouldn't work then tossed them.

 

[theprestige]

Gun people will still want to make movies with real guns and you will never stop them

And that's why all your rigamarole about modifying guns and bullets doesn't matter.

And why should we listen to them?

Why should we care? If a grown-ass adult wants to cavort with their real gun in the privacy of their own movie set, in the company of other consenting adults, why should it matter to us?

All over the country this next week, people are going to be gathering together, taking out real guns, and brandishing them in the privacy of their homes. Many of them will be recorded by cameras. None of this is even remotely problematic (except to those who are nervous about the idea of private citizens possessing guns at all).

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And that's why all your rigamarole about modifying guns and bullets doesn't matter.


Why should we care? If a grown-ass adult wants to cavort with their real gun in the privacy of their own movie set, in the company of other consenting adults, why should it matter to us?

All over the country this next week, people are going to be gathering together, taking out real guns, and brandishing them in the privacy of their homes. Many of them will be recorded by cameras. None of this is even remotely problematic (except to those who are nervous about the idea of private citizens possessing guns at all).

This whole case Is going to come down too did the gun go on half Cock when the Armourer loaded in the last round, and was it a functioning Gun?
If it went on half Cock when the Armourer loaded the last round but was broken, when Alec Baldwin cocked the Hammer back and comes back non functional then someone broke the gun on purpose or by dropping it.
If it didn't go on half Cock then the Armourer is Negligent giving Baldwin a loaded and broken gun.
The only other two possibilities are Baldwin is lying or someone knew how to expertly rig the trigger, wedge the Trigger on that gun.

 

[arayder]

. . .The tale is that in the old days of westerns the colt single action was popular among film makers because it could function with dummies, blanks and live rounds. If you watch old westerns you'd think it was the only gun in the old west.

I think it had more to do with you could then pick up a single action Colt for five Bucks army surplus in 1911 so the prop houses bought tons of them and used them until the mechanisms wore out, and wouldn't work then tossed them.

I am ruining the tale, but Williams S. Hart used to carry a Colt New Service swing out revolver in some of his movies. He's have a Colt Army in one hand and the swing out in the other.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/47092558_wm-s-hart-historic-screen-used-colt-revolver-18286

I don't think this was period accurate since the New Service was introduced in 1898 and Hart's model was manufactured in 1907.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 185 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, that would work. But the only challenge then would be using look alike guns to film scenes in which blanks are used simulate live rounds. The film makers could have different cylinders which they could install (it aint' that difficult) when they want to use blanks they could. But, then you are back to a situation where somehow a live round can be put in the cylinder.

As couple of other posters have commented the way around all this is to control the presence of live rounds on the set.

The tale is that in the old days of westerns the colt single action was popular among film makers because it could function with dummies, blanks and live rounds. If you watch old westerns you'd think it was the only gun in the old west.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 185 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

A blank could be used in the same gun. It would be shorter to chamber in the shortened cylinder or chamber so a live round would still not fit.