Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Puppycow said:
One was holding a sign that said "Good Cops Quit".
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Anecdotal evidence suggests that a lot of good cops do quit when they find their force's culture is toxic and entrenched.
OK. I'm not trying to create anything, just trying to understand what is actually happening.
When you remarked that if there is an indictment, "antifa" would not be featured in the indictment.
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It won't be, because antifa is not a thing. I'm sure there are people who like to associate themselves with the name, and it exists as a denizen of the demon-haunted right-wing world, but it's not a thing. Barr may even be investigating it but things don't need to be real for that.
The concept of "antifa" is redolent with violence, chaos, threat.

Again, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening here.
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A laudable objective : best not sound off too loudly before you're reasonably sure you do. That's been my experience, anyway.

What are the motives of these people?
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By "these people" you are presumably referring to "antifa and BLM" which is what you asked about. BLM is at least a cause, and not one redolent of violence. One might even call it a movement, which is a thing. But you are trying to conflate them. The matter of motives does come to mind. at that point.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's a different city, different group, whole different set of circumstances and they are protecting protesters, not a group swinging bats that arrived in Seattle later than and separately from the protesters.
But this conflation shows Trump's propaganda is sinking in.
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Indeed. Conflation is a tried and tested technique. Not that Trump himself is using the technique: rather, it's worked on him. He really believes that protest is insurrection.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I was addressing what you posted.
Who's "they"? So the dog whistle means protests to some and revolution to others.

Yes, Trump has been calling protests with a couple hundred to a couple 1000 people on a couple streets taking over a city of 750,000+ (Seattle not counting all the connected suburbs) or Portland (665,000)


First off, the protests had been dying down here in Seattle, there was a small protest march invaded by an even smaller group of window smashers.

Portland's protests were also small and getting smaller until federal agents moved in to start violently opposing the protesters. People came out to protest for a new cause: oppose the secret police.
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Justifiably, of course. At the same time (and completely separately) it throws down a gauntlet to wannabe insurrectionaries far and wide. You'll be nobody in the anarchist world if you weren't in Portland '20. It'll be like not being in Paris '68 to my generation.



Thinking people can't expect intimidation to work against a mixture of youth, adrenalin and testosterone, but of course that's not the point.
 
CapelDodger said:
Justifiably, of course. At the same time (and completely separately) it throws down a gauntlet to wannabe insurrectionaries far and wide. You'll be nobody in the anarchist world if you weren't in Portland '20. It'll be like not being in Paris '68 to my generation.

Thinking people can't expect intimidation to work against a mixture of youth, adrenalin and testosterone, but of course that's not the point.
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I'm not clear on the position you are taking here but Portland anarchists have been around for a couple decades. I don't think they are a growing threat.

Who else did you have in mind that Trump's gauntlet was supposedly effectively intimidating?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm not clear on the position you are taking here but Portland anarchists have been around for a couple decades. I don't think they are a growing threat.
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I'm thinking beyond Portland. Trump thinks he's going to intimidate the rioters (or, as he would put it, the protesters) but that's an invitation to anyone eager to earn their chops in the anarchist world with nothing going on at home.


Who else did you have in mind that Trump's gauntlet was supposedly effectively intimidating?
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I never suggested it was effective, but it's what Trump thinks his tough-guy talk will achieve. "A whiff of grapeshot will sort it out". Nasty fierce dogs with big teeth. Water-cannons and batons sweeping them off the streets, and they were all crying like little girls, yadda yadda.
 
CapelDodger said:
It won't be, because antifa is not a thing. I'm sure there are people who like to associate themselves with the name, and it exists as a denizen of the demon-haunted right-wing world, but it's not a thing. Barr may even be investigating it but things don't need to be real for that.
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Really? It's not real?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)
Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] is an anti-fascist political movement in the United States[2][3][4][5] comprising a diverse[6][7] array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both non-violent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform.[8][9][10][11] Antifa political activists engage in protest tactics such as digital activism and militancy[8][12] against fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other far-right extremists whom they seek to combat.[13] This may sometimes involve property damage, physical violence and harassment against those whom they identify as belonging to the far-right.[14][15][16][17]

Individuals involved in the movement tend to hold anti-authoritarian[18] and anti-capitalist views,[19] subscribing to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy and socialism.[20][21][22][23][24] Both the name antifa and the logo with two flags representing anarchism and communism are derived from the German Antifa movement.[25]
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You believe that this movement doesn't exist?

What about this group in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa
 
Puppycow said:
What do you mean when you say "not a thing"?

Do you believe that racism is a thing?

For example.
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It seems to be an article of faith around here that Antifa doesn't exist. I assume they mean it doesn't exist in the sense that it's not some organized group. Maybe they have the old cell-structure of the old communists?

ETA: Portland Mayor gets tear-gassed by Feds. And I agree with the protestors:

The mayor has opposed federal agents’ presence in Oregon’s largest city, but he has faced harsh criticism from many sides and his presence wasn’t welcomed by many, who yelled and swore at him.
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Brainster said:
It seems to be an article of faith around here that Antifa doesn't exist. I assume they mean it doesn't exist in the sense that it's not some organized group. Maybe they have the old cell-structure of the old communists?

ETA: Portland Mayor gets tear-gassed by Feds. And I agree with the protestors:
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I put them in the same bin as all of those alleged Bernie Bros who are going to vote for Trump to spite Biden. Once you subtract the hearsay, the false flag trolls, the baseless accusations, there's just not much left. The last I'm aware of any genuine antifa activities was Charlottesville three years ago, and that was in response to genuine fascism so it'd be where you'd expect anti-fascists to show up. Since then they've just been boogeymen for Fox News to blame everything on and not make their viewers ask themselves any tough questions.

Come to think of it I reach a similar conclusion reading the Historical Jesus thread. Somehow I don't feel I'm the one arguing from faith here.
 
I don't know if it matters if you call them Antifa, or violent protesters, or whatever you call the subsection of protesters who engage in violence, but the damage from them to businesses and people is still there. I definitely agree that Trump and Fox News have used the 'Antifa' term so broadly, that it has lost a lot of meaning, and people do not take them seriously anymore.

They will call a group of peaceful demonstrators just standing there with signs 'antifa terrorists.' It certainly does not make people believe them when there actually protesters engaging in violence.


Meanwhile, a roving band of 150 people walked around Seattle openly looting and starting fires last night, and according to the police "nothing could be done" to stop it.


Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting


SEATTLE — A destructive, roving band of people broke into several Seattle businesses Wednesday night and set fire to merchandise in some of the stores, police said.

The group of about 150 people first gathered at Cal Anderson Park at about 9 p.m., then roamed about the Capitol Hill neighborhood, doing massive amounts of property damage, looting, shooting fireworks, and committing arson, according to police reports.

The group then made its way to the 1500 block of 11th Avenue, breaking more businesses’ windows along the way. Some people in the group then broke into a business, stole merchandise and put it in middle of the street, where they lit it on fire.

The owners of Likelihood Seattle, a local business selling men's and women's shoes at 1101 East Union Street, said their store was hit by the group, but police told them nothing could be done.

The group then went to Broadway and Madison Street, where individuals used baseball bats and pipes to break all the windows at a Whole Foods store. They threw fireworks into the store and then began looting...

No arrests were made.
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Just ran in to someone who’s been on the ground covering these protests - he says “the professionals are back.” Needless to say, he wasn’t happy
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Also, there are definitely differences in the actions of people who self identify as Antifa. It does not always mean that they will automatically engage in violence.

When the Proud Boys came to the CHOP, there were people who identified themselves as Antifa who had long discussions with the Proud Boys as they walked through the zone. There was a filmed attack from the Proud Boys on a single person later in the day, but at least during their visit in the CHOP area, there was no violence.
 
HoverBoarder said:
I don't know if it matters if you call them Antifa, or violent protesters, or whatever you call the subsection of protesters who engage in violence, but the damage from them to businesses and people is still there. I definitely agree that Trump and Fox News have used the 'Antifa' term so broadly, that it has lost a lot of meaning, and people do not take them seriously anymore.

They will call a group of peaceful demonstrators just standing there with signs 'antifa terrorists.' It certainly does not make people believe them when there actually protesters engaging in violence.


Meanwhile, a roving band of 150 people walked around Seattle openly looting and starting fires last night, and according to the police "nothing could be done" to stop it.


Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting
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Never a social worker around when you need one.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Strangely enough, the cities that didn't take an iron fist approach to breaches of public order have been the most successful in keeping things peaceful.

Many major cities in the US had outbreaks of protests that turned into riots in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd murder.

Now, only a select few are still having ongoing, if not escalating, bouts of public disorder and opportunistic looting. It should be noted that these cities have also seen some of the most robust police responses since day 1.

Doing nothing, or using a very light touch, is often the best tactic if the goal is reducing violence or property damage. Sending out the riot cops to gas and beat crowds practically guarantees continued unrest.

Portland has had 50+ days of continuous unrest in the streets. The cops are out in full force, using everything short of just opening fire with lethal weapons into the crowd. It's a real-time natural experiment in the effectiveness of jack-boot tactics to quell riots and is failing miserably.
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Seattle and Portland, those bastions of right-wing authoritarianism...
 
Beelzebuddy said:
I put them in the same bin as all of those alleged Bernie Bros who are going to vote for Trump to spite Biden. Once you subtract the hearsay, the false flag trolls, the baseless accusations, there's just not much left. The last I'm aware of any genuine antifa activities was Charlottesville three years ago, and that was in response to genuine fascism so it'd be where you'd expect anti-fascists to show up. Since then they've just been boogeymen for Fox News to blame everything on and not make their viewers ask themselves any tough questions.
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Interesting. So you have some way of determining which activities are genuine antifa, and which are ersatz?
 
Distracted1 said:
Never a social worker around when you need one.
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That is sadly more true than you may realize.

I just wrote a thread on it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345622

The stated goal of many of the key political decision makers is to not just to defund the police by 50%, but to full out replace them with community social worker groups that would "eliminate the need for police" altogether.


Here's a snipit of the thread from someone who is leading the charge to get rid of police and replace them with social workers.



Nikkita Oliver said:
Our first set of demand as it related to defund in 2020, is we see three million dollars go to a participatory budgeting process. Because we need to have as much time as possible to get as much community involved as possible in deciding what is the next phase of services that we move into, and we want that process held by community. We want it to be in partnership with King County Equity now, Decriminalize Seattle, and the organizations that are under those coalitions.

Because we know that community is going to better administer that process than bureaucracy will right? The next step is also scaling up community-based services. So we're looking at 10 million dollars to help those organizations that already exist, that are doing public health and public safety work to be able to scale up so that in mid 2021, those organizations can start taking a much higher level of calls from 911, which is also about civilianizing 911 infrastructure.

As it stands now, police officers are involved in determining when people call into dispatch, what gets sent out to respond to that call. And so it is really important that we get this armed police mentality out of the way that we respond to crises, and really get a true social work understanding of what it means when someone in crisis calls.

You know, we have services in our city that know how to respond to domestic violence, know how to respond to mental health crises, know how to support people through courts, and other processes within the criminal punishment system, and those systems need to be well funded. The truth of the matter is that many of those organization are doing far more work, but are grossly underfunded, and we want to get to a place where those organization have exactly what they need.

The fourth bucket that we are looking at right now is housing, because we know that when people [don't have] housing and are stable, there's no way that they can live a totally safe life. When you're worried about where you are going to live, or what you're going to eat, you're inevitably going to be pushed into the criminal justice system. Your going to have to commit quote unquote crimes of poverty, and you're going to have to do things that otherwise you would not have to do if we made sure that everyone in our city who wanted it, had access to safe affordable housing.

So that's 2020, when we get to 2021, we're going to be asking the Seattle city council to also still commit to that 50% cut of SPD's budget, which is going to be 205 million dollars, because their budget right now is 410 million. That is a new opportunity to grow our civilianized 911 infrastructure, and to ensure that we grow those services that we know sociologically, we know scientifically, this is not some stuff we made up. There's tons of research that shows this, that we know actually keeps people from ever having to have having an encounter with police, and as we strengthen those services, we can continue to decrease SPD's budget, until we get to the place where they are no longer needed.
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HoverBoarder said:
That is sadly more true than you may realize.

I just wrote a thread on it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345622

The stated goal of many of the key political decision makers is to not just to defund the police by 50%, but to full out replace them with community social worker groups that would "eliminate the need for police" altogether.


Here's a snipit of the thread from someone who is leading the charge to get rid of police and replace them with social workers.

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They're going to cut the police budget by 205 million? How much you want to bet that is more than the combined salaries of all SPD? I'm sure the thought is that if you cut the budget in half, you cut the number of cops in half. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, because only a portion of the budget is salaries; a lot of other expenditures are relatively fixed and don't scale down, at least not overnight. But I do love the confidence of Nikkita Oliver. Whenever I hear anybody say " we know sociologically, we know scientifically, this is not some stuff we made up," everything else they say is some stuff they made up.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Seattle and Portland, those bastions of right-wing authoritarianism...
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Seattle PD could likely be disbanded entirely and replaced with a new force, they're wildly out of line and it seems clear that reform attempts have failed. They can be replaced with Seattle residents, who likely will actually listen instead of immediately beating the crap out of people who they think don't "respect their authorirah" - and certainly these federal forces should be arrested and charges with assault, kidnapping, rioting, and whatever else can be thrown at them.

And no more working with the union until they replace leadership entirely.

Think I'm kidding about "drastic reform"? Most of the time they show up the cops are the only actual violent people around, and when people on the force things do show up they mysteriously vanish - which is why there's so much violence in the first place. Most of these forces simply refuse to understand that they are the main problem, so what use are they?
 
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