Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[TurkeysGhost]

It's the white moderate trolley problem. A trolley is coming towards a group of people on the tracks. It can be safely diverted, but you have to break a shopfront window to reach the lever. What do you do? You do nothing and complain about the broken glass when someone with a conscience breaks the window. You put cops on the next window to ensure it doesn't happen again, and shed solemn tears as trolleys splatter people 3 times a day.

History is littered with examples that meaningful reform doesn't come peacefully and orderly. That's an ugly fact, but there it is.

If enlightened centrists cared half as much about the multigenerational oppression of poor black communities by the police state as they do about an Amazon storefront getting cleaned out by looters, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[Puppycow]

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

A general sense of disorder forces a complacent society to address systematic problems.

People holding signs, marching with a permit, and standing in a free speech zone 3 miles away from anything important don't change things.

Wine moms tasting tear gas on live TV changes things. Watching people get bones broken by the Gestapo for "unlawful assembly" changes things.

No justice, no peace. I hope the riots continue until the cops are forced to stand down.

 

[Brainster]

It's the white moderate trolley problem. A trolley is coming towards a group of people on the tracks. It can be safely diverted, but you have to break a shopfront window to reach the lever. What do you do? You do nothing and complain about the broken glass when someone with a conscience breaks the window. You put cops on the next window to ensure it doesn't happen again, and shed solemn tears as trolleys splatter people 3 times a day.

That may be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard.

 

[Brainster]

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

In fact, the lever we are supposed to pull will end in more deaths, as it diverts the trolley into a larger group of minorities.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't think the looting is directly necessary for reform.

My point is that sustained public protest, including raucous, unlawful assembly in violation of curfew or police orders, is necessary. An unintended consequence of this is that it creates an environment in which opportunistic looters can take advantage. That isn't the goal of the protests, and people protesting might not want it to happen, but it's happening.

It's unrealistic, and I suspect often in bad faith, to demand that protests perfectly thread the needle to be both effective and orderly.

Looting isn't a good reason to oppose protests and side with the cops that are beating the snot out of people demanding change.

 

[Brainster]

I don't think the looting is directly necessary for reform.

My point is that sustained public protest, including raucous, unlawful assembly in violation of curfew or police orders, is necessary. An unintended consequence of this is that it creates an environment in which opportunistic looters can take advantage. That isn't the goal of the protests, and people protesting might not want it to happen, but it's happening.

It's unrealistic, and I suspect often in bad faith, to demand that protests perfectly thread the needle to be both effective and orderly.

Looting isn't a good reason to oppose protests and side with the cops that are beating the snot out of people demanding change.

You're not pro-looting, you're anti-anti-looting?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You're not pro-looting, you're anti-anti-looting?

I'm anti "pretext for cops to suppress a popular uprising".

If the city can prevent the looting without jackboot tactics, by all means. Seems that all their solutions seem to be that protesters should stay home and shut up, which is unacceptable.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Monopoly analogy

It is like finding out the banker has been cheating against you the whole game, and then all the other players say that it will be by the rules from here out and keep playing.

Don't be surprised if someone flips the board.

 

[HoverBoarder]

A general sense of disorder forces a complacent society to address systematic problems.

People holding signs, marching with a permit, and standing in a free speech zone 3 miles away from anything important don't change things.

Wine moms tasting tear gas on live TV changes things. Watching people get bones broken by the Gestapo for "unlawful assembly" changes things.

No justice, no peace. I hope the riots continue until the cops are forced to stand down.

It's definitely starting to get violent, and people are more and more people have definitely been injured and some have died since the protests started. The thing is that the huge vast majority of protesters have been peaceful, and a small minority have been violent.

It's not just windows, but actual lives that have been destroyed. This is a critical time, and I would hope that their deaths mean something, but from what I have seen, the violence from protesters drives many of the peaceful protesters away. In Seattle and other cities at least it did the tens of thousands of people dwindled to a few hundred once the major violence started. They started their own protests, and you had black leaders protesting for an end to the violence who in some cities were attacked by the violent ones.

There were people with families, elderly, and just regular people who are passionate and committed to standing up for real change who will not come out to protest when the violent protesters try to take over the movement and message.


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...0200720-22gck7pwbbg5jkr77fxnjvlh2u-story.html

“What began as a peaceful protest at Grant Park Friday evening devolved into a very dangerous situation in which mob action deliberately sought to injure officers, provoke retaliation and damage property. Forty-nine Chicago police officers were injured. Forty-nine,” Brown said. “Eighteen of whom were sent to area hospitals for their injuries.”

The morning police news conference began with overhead video taken by city cameras, in an effort to show that some in the crowd of thousands that had marched toward the Columbus statue in Grant Park had planned an attack on police officers. It appeared at least a dozen people used umbrellas to shield people in the crowd who changed into all black clothing; distributed frozen water bottles, rocks, and explosive devices that were thrown at officers; and used sharpened PVC pipe as a weapon, O’Shea said.

“I want to point out that we’ve had multiple protests at the statue prior to this event that were all peaceful, and we respected everyone’s First Amendment right to protest peacefully, but this was not — what you’re seeing here is obviously an ambush on police officers,” O’Shea said...

“These peaceful protests have been hijacked and that’s one of the things I think people need to consider,” he said.

When asked whether the police investigation has shown that the protest organizers were working with the agitators, Brown said, saying: “God I hope not. But it sure looks like it.”

The protests are quickly taking a dark side, and people are increasingly having to choose between supporting or opposing the violence. That will both turn some formerly peaceful protesters violent, and turn some peaceful protesters against the violence on both sides.

It certainly deludes the message.

 

[HoverBoarder]

"Under policing" was once determined to be a tremendously racist policy that caused there to be fewer police in an area, and it led to many unnecessary deaths.

Today that is a policy that is being adapted as a demand of the BLM movement as part of the "defund the police" mantra even though we have seen the negative affects of it play out many times before.

In LA and New York they have already moved to reduce the police, and there is a tragic increase in unnecessary death that has resulted because of that. It's a trendy and 'hip' phrase with tragic consequences.

In Seattle, there is a veto proof majority of the Seattle city council to cut 50% of the police force with no real plan on what to do after that. Gun sales are surging Nationally, and in the stores around me, people are waiting in long lines to buy guns. We have seen what happens when poorly though out plans like this are implemented without any plans on what to do to stem the violence.

People have seen this experiment happen time and time again, and it has suddenly become popular to not think about the consequences or the past affects of those actions. Many are arming themselves and getting ready for the violence and death that they are seeing playing out right now.


The tragedy of George Floyd was a terrible event, but it did provide the opportunity for real and meaningful change to the problem of Systemic racism. Many in the movement are rejecting real and meaningful change in support of a lot of unnecessary dead people instead.

That, is a real tragedy far greater than the death of George Floyd.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...moms-formed-protect-demonstrators/5470348002/

That's a different city, different group, whole different set of circumstances and they are protecting protesters, not a group swinging bats that arrived in Seattle later than and separately from the protesters.

But this conflation shows Trump's propaganda is sinking in.

 

[Brainster]

"Under policing" was once determined to be a tremendously racist policy that caused there to be fewer police in an area, and it led to many unnecessary deaths.

These types of issues seem to swing from one side to the other like a pendulum. If the cops police too aggressively, citizen complaints (some legit) go up. If they don't police aggressively enough, crime goes up. It seems obvious to me that the cops are going to police a whole lot less aggressively in the major cities that have been hit by the demonstrations and riots, particularly in places like Seattle and Portland, where the elected leaders have undercut any effort by the police to restore order.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why bother quoting me if you are not going to address anything at all I am talking about? I mean, do you.. but I don't get it.

I was addressing what you posted.

It seems like a play on language going on a bit here. When they talk about 'violent protests', they seem to be talking about violent revolutions. Do you think this is deliberate?

Who's "they"? So the dog whistle means protests to some and revolution to others.

Yes, Trump has been calling protests with a couple hundred to a couple 1000 people on a couple streets taking over a city of 750,000+ (Seattle not counting all the connected suburbs) or Portland (665,000)

[snipped to get to the point]
But it feels like it is becoming the same thing when reference peaceful protests and accepting at a minimum or advocating to an extent for more extreme measures. You can peacefully protest and disrupt to a huge extent. Constant, disruptive protests can inconvenience people without physically harming them. You can disrupt normal life, causing people to not only be aware of but have to address your complaints. I guess they are trying to speed up the process through escalation, but that can definitely backfire.

First off, the protests had been dying down here in Seattle, there was a small protest march invaded by an even smaller group of window smashers.

Portland's protests were also small and getting smaller until federal agents moved in to start violently opposing the protesters. People came out to protest for a new cause: oppose the secret police.

What you describe was not happening. Protests were not "escalating". They stopped blocking the freeways and attempts to block onramps/offramps were stopped by the police.

What I said did address your post. What you describe might be the theoretical experience with protests. Are you suggesting protesters started a guerrilla war?

That's absurd.

I suspect you don't live in Portland or Seattle.


Edited to add: The news is reporting they believe the bat wielding group were related to a Portland group. There has been a small group of declared "anarchists" showing up at past protests like the WTO protests. They like to break windows. Few if any people want them here and they certainly aren't a welcome part of the protesters.

People often latch onto protests with their own causes as if it makes the protest about their cause. It ruins protests, they aren't wanted and sometimes they get blocked sometimes they don't.

The only cause they serve is giving fuel to people opposing the protesters. It's possible the anarchists expect to start a revolution like T McVeigh though blowing up the Murrow building would start a revolution.

 

[carlitos]

The ******** attacking police in Chicago aren't doing so because of Trump's propaganda. Bringing that up in the context of a general discussion on riots isn't "conflating" anything.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The ******** attacking police in Chicago aren't doing so because of Trump's propaganda. Bringing that up in the context of a general discussion on riots isn't "conflating" anything.

Of course not. Protesters are not Trump's target market.

 

[HoverBoarder]

These types of issues seem to swing from one side to the other like a pendulum. If the cops police too aggressively, citizen complaints (some legit) go up. If they don't police aggressively enough, crime goes up. It seems obvious to me that the cops are going to police a whole lot less aggressively in the major cities that have been hit by the demonstrations and riots, particularly in places like Seattle and Portland, where the elected leaders have undercut any effort by the police to restore order.

The really ironic thing, is that I don't think that many of the white protesters and politicians who support policies like these realize how incredibly racist they are being towards black people.


They can be incredibly 'woke,' and follow the tenets of the anti "whiteness" doctrines of White Fragility. They destroy stores (some of whom are black owned), destroy people's lives, and can feel incredibly vindicated when telling police officers that they should kill themselves. However, the reality is that all of those actions are completely self serving.

If their only legacy from those actions is that they have destroyed a lot of things, and create policies that kill hundreds or thousands of black people who did not have to die, than they are no better than the KKK members who outright state that as their goal. In fact, they likely will kill more black people than the whole KKK organization has done in its entire existence. The only real difference is that the KKK members are honest with themselves about their goals, and the results of their actions.

So far no amount of actions from Black leaders has been able to get them to stop. At CHOP in Seattle, the official BLM chapter members were shouted down and cursed at by largely white protesters for hijacking the Black Lives Matter movement message, and hindering their attempts to make real and lasting change for the black community.


The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.

 

[portlandatheist]

I'm anti "pretext for cops to suppress a popular uprising".

If the city can prevent the looting without jackboot tactics, by all means. Seems that all their solutions seem to be that protesters should stay home and shut up, which is unacceptable.

I don't think that is true. Thousands and thousands of protesters have marched from Revolution Hall to Pioneer Square and have temporarily closed down the Burnside bridges and the Hawthorne bridges without any incident that I'm aware of. No arrests. The people at the Justice Center, including arsonists, have an agenda of WANTING confrontation with the police and CHOOSING a confrontation with the police. I've demonstrated many times in PDX and as long as things were peaceful, there was nobody forcing me to stay home and shut up and no need to have an unproductive stand off with the police.

 

[portlandatheist]

That is a major problem. People are more and more becoming entrenched in their corners, and not thinking through the implications of their actions or plans.

<snip>

Thank you for such a thoughtful perspective on what is going on. I'll watch the Converge Media interview when I get a chance.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Thank you for such a thoughtful perspective on what is going on. I'll watch the Converge Media interview when I get a chance.

Thank you for that comment, I think that you will find that it is an incredibly engaging conversation.

Converge Media also have a follow up video with Katrina Johnson, the cousin of the late Charleena Lyles who was killed by SPD in a mental health incident with SPD (a major name that is brought up a lot in the Seattle protests), as well as Nikkita Oliver who was a leading candidate for mayor, and has been a major advocate for reform for many years.

Some of the names may be local to Seattle, but the ideas and solutions that they talk about in these two shows are absolutely applicable for the entire Nation.