Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[CapelDodger]

Okay, but the strict reading you insist on could also accurately describe police behavior and I feel like they do it even more often, with far greater numbers and coordination than the troublemakers hiding amongst protestors. Then throw on the greater expectations of state agents, etc.

I'm not sure what expectations to have of state agents whose usual task is to comb through hand-luggage for inappropriate volumes of shampoo.

 

[portlandatheist]

It's not semantics. There's a very clear difference between a small group of people vandalizing some stores and a riot!

Calling these incidents riots is falsely portraying what is going on.

So yeah, probably no point in having a discussion if you describe what is going on dishonestly.

FWIW, this is how Portland Police define a riot

RIOT: Six or more persons engaging in tumultuous and violent conduct and therby intentionaly or recklessly creating a grave risk of causing public alarm, excluding persons who are engaged in passive resistance.

If we were to go by this definition, the protests at the Justice Center have turned into riots each and every evening.

BTW, I went to the Justice Center and Chapman Square where they were cooking Riot Ribs . I think even some of the rioters see these as riots. I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time. Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be? These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center.
I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.

 

[acbytesla]

FWIW, this is how Portland Police define a riot

If we were to go by this definition, the protests at the Justice Center have turned into riots each and every evening.

BTW, I went to the Justice Center and Chapman Square where they were cooking Riot Ribs . I think even some of the rioters see these as riots. I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time. Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be? These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center.
I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.

It will come back. Democracy is messy. Out of curiosity, how many reporters reported on the protest near your neighborhood?

 

[portlandatheist]

It will come back. Democracy is messy. Out of curiosity, how many reporters reported on the protest near your neighborhood?

I don't really know. I think there is likely only light coverage in comparison to what is happening at the justice center. I watch kgw and typically catch "The Story" every night with Dan Haggerty. They have shown the protests at Revolution Hall, a staging area before they march downtown and these are the family-style protests but this is just a small part of their coverage. I will say this much: the protesters have all the media attention they could ever want.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't really know. I think there is likely only light coverage in comparison to what is happening at the justice center. I watch kgw and typically catch "The Story" every night with Dan Haggerty. They have shown the protests at Revolution Hall, a staging area before they march downtown and these are the family-style protests but this is just a small part of their coverage. I will say this much: the protesters have all the media attention they could ever want.

This is the crux of the problem. The powers that be will ignore you if they can. You have to give society a reason to change.

I'm not sure how old you are, but these protests are minor compared to the anti-Vietnam and Civil Rights protests of the 60s.

 

[Brainster]

It will come back.

If you're a small business owner in that neighborhood, do you think you could afford to stay there? Keep in mind, this is coming right on the heels of the two month or more lockdown. Odds are decent any equipment you had is trashed, any inventory stolen, etc. And no end in sight, no reason to believe that even if it dies down for a month or two that it won't happen again.

South Central LA has come back a bit, but it took decades. Watts is still a disaster area 55 years later. Detroit? I hear Newark is actually pretty nice these days, but again, that's a very long time.

 

[acbytesla]

If you're a small business owner in that neighborhood, do you think you could afford to stay there? Keep in mind, this is coming right on the heels of the two month or more lockdown. Odds are decent any equipment you had is trashed, any inventory stolen, etc. And no end in sight, no reason to believe that even if it dies down for a month or two that it won't happen again.

South Central LA has come back a bit, but it took decades. Watts is still a disaster area 55 years later. Detroit? I hear Newark is actually pretty nice these days, but again, that's a very long time.

The COVID virus has been a far greater problem for those businesses. But frankly, I think a far greater problem is the institutional racism and the use of secret police. I've also seen small businesses destroyed by huge corporations.

I certainly don't like to see anyone's business fail. But I also don't like to see people killed by police officers either.

 

[CapelDodger]

The COVID virus has been a far greater problem for those businesses.

There were only 15 cases heading towards zero months ago. How can the invisible Chinese virus have caused problems?

But frankly, I think a far greater problem is the institutional racism and the use of secret police.

That's bad, but acceptable. It's people who don't accept it who've caused the problem, because they hate Trump (and, by extension, the United States).

I've also seen small businesses destroyed by huge corporations.

Small businesses have been destroyed by Trump's refusal to pay them what he owes them.

I certainly don't like to see anyone's business fail. But I also don't like to see people killed by police officers either.

Can you not just accept that the world is never going to be perfect?

 

[portlandatheist]

It looks like the stabbing victim the other night was a black conservative activist and the perp was Antifa and convicted pedophile.
Video from the hospital
To the credit of the protesters, they held him until police could arrive and arrest the perp. I'm not sure of the credibility of the jewish voice, other news outlets are naming the perp and victim, but not their backgrounds/motivations.

 

[CapelDodger]

Well, duh. They're there for the riot.

I didn't get any ribs. I found the entire scene down there profoundly and deeply depressing. I believe we are witnessing urban decay in real-time.

You've just noticed? Urban decay's been going on since the Reagan/Thatcher victories in 1979-80, aka the Chicago School Discontinuity.

Nobody can keep a business open down there. There was a stabbing last night nearby.
Compare and contrast that with the protest happening near my neighborhood: not a single police officer in sight and why would there be?

Indeed, why would there be?

These protesters are not explicitly and intentionally seeking out conflict with police unlike the people at the Justice Center

And yet Trump will still call any protest a riot and any protester "antifa".

I love my city and we've had some really good mayors like Vera Katz that made the Eastbank Esplanade and helped turn downtown into a vibrant and welcoming place. Now it is a disaster.

One that was waiting to happen, apparently. Apart from covid-19, the combination of ubiquitous video-capture and police killings was bound to produce something as graphic as the casual murder of George Floyd - the first event in the chain which brought Portland to where it is.

The situation in Portland is peculiar, for all the efforts to portray it as universal in US cities. From what I've read it does have more than its fair share of peculiarities, one being an unusual appetite for protest and demonstration going back many decades. An additional one is that it was where the new issue of covert feds first emerged and has injected fresh energy. The triumvirate of Trump, Barr and Wolf chose to test out there scheme there for reasons which are (and may forever remain) obscure. We can have our suspicions, of course, and no doubt will.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm not sure how old you are, but these protests are minor compared to the anti-Vietnam and Civil Rights protests of the 60s.

I remember those (and the Civil Rights riots in Northern Ireland : the Provos and Black Panthers were things) and it's a sad indictment of the media's decline since then that I could see them on broadcast news - block after block ablaze, it looked apocalyptic - on this side of the Atlantic but now I have to read a thread like this to learn that Portland has been destroyed and many US cities are on the verge of being overwhelmed. "More connected" world my arse.

I remember Kent State as well, and police riots in Alabama and Chicago.At least we're not there yet.

 

[portlandatheist]

Well, duh. They're there for the riot.
You've just noticed? Urban decay's been going on since the Reagan/Thatcher victories in 1979-80, aka the Chicago School Discontinuity.

Just to address this one point for a moment. We went through quite a profound and pronounced period of urban revitalization from 1995-2000 ish. We built a light rail system. We built the Eastbank Esplanade and many other walking/biking access. We completely transformed the Pearl District from a drug trafficers paradise to some of the most desirable real estate in the city. We had great zoning laws to make downtown retail and restaurant friendly as possible. Sorry for a bit of a distraction but this is a real concern of many people living here.
Downtown Portland businesses, derailed by pandemic, say protests present a new challenge[Oregon live article]

 

[acbytesla]

I remember those (and the Civil Rights riots in Northern Ireland : the Provos and Black Panthers were things) and it's a sad indictment of the media's decline since then that I could see them on broadcast news - block after block ablaze, it looked apocalyptic - on this side of the Atlantic but now I have to read a thread like this to learn that Portland has been destroyed and many US cities are on the verge of being overwhelmed. "More connected" world my arse.

I remember Kent State as well, and police riots in Alabama and Chicago.At least we're not there yet.

Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.

 

[portlandatheist]

Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.

I took tons of photos and videos of downtown from yesterday. It is boarded up for blocks. It truly looks terrible.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Police in Austin, Texas are investigating the fatal shooting of a protester at an anti-racism march.

Garrett Foster was pushing his fiancée's wheelchair at the protest when a car drove into the crowd, his mother Sheila Foster told US media.

As demonstrators approached the car, someone inside the vehicle opened fire on the group.

Mr Foster was taken to hospital, but was pronounced dead shortly afterwards. Police have arrested a suspect.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53548415

 

[CapelDodger]

Just to address this one point for a moment. We went through quite a profound and pronounced period of urban revitalization from 1995-2000 ish. We built a light rail system. We built the Eastbank Esplanade and many other walking/biking access. We completely transformed the Pearl District from a drug trafficers paradise to some of the most desirable real estate in the city. We had great zoning laws to make downtown retail and restaurant friendly as possible. Sorry for a bit of a distraction but this is a real concern of many people living here.
Downtown Portland businesses, derailed by pandemic, say protests present a new challenge[Oregon live article]

Forgive my flippancy. I do appreciate that people of good intention have made geat strides against the general tide, and I hope that much of it will survive. I have no sympathy for the rioters, who are in it for the buzz of running riot, and every sympathy for those they harm in pursuit of their entertainment.

 

[CapelDodger]

Portland hasn't been destroyed. This is like the exaggeration that the Protest or Chop zone in Seattle was like the entire city.

I appreciate that. I should have more recourse to the irony sign.
ETA : Memories of "You are now entering Free Derry" do put the CHOP zone in perspective.

 

[acbytesla]

I took tons of photos and videos of downtown from yesterday. It is boarded up for blocks. It truly looks terrible.

Remember the WTO riots in Seattle? Same thing. Seattle came back. Portland is a great city. Boards can be removed.

 

[portlandatheist]

It looks like the stabbing victim the other night was a black conservative activist and the perp was Antifa and convicted pedophile.
Video from the hospital
To the credit of the protesters, they held him until police could arrive and arrest the perp. I'm not sure of the credibility of the jewish voice, other news outlets are naming the perp and victim, but not their backgrounds/motivations.

The stabbing victim has been released from the hospital[KGW news]

 

[HoverBoarder]

The really ironic thing, is that I don't think that many of the white protesters and politicians who support policies like these realize how incredibly racist they are being towards black people.


They can be incredibly 'woke,' and follow the tenets of the anti "whiteness" doctrines of White Fragility. They destroy stores (some of whom are black owned), destroy people's lives, and can feel incredibly vindicated when telling police officers that they should kill themselves. However, the reality is that all of those actions are completely self serving.

If their only legacy from those actions is that they have destroyed a lot of things, and create policies that kill hundreds or thousands of black people who did not have to die, than they are no better than the KKK members who outright state that as their goal. In fact, they likely will kill more black people than the whole KKK organization has done in its entire existence. The only real difference is that the KKK members are honest with themselves about their goals, and the results of their actions.

So far no amount of actions from Black leaders has been able to get them to stop. At CHOP in Seattle, the official BLM chapter members were shouted down and cursed at by largely white protesters for hijacking the Black Lives Matter movement message, and hindering their attempts to make real and lasting change for the black community.


The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.

A bunch of pseudo-conservative drivel, complete with a ridiculous of slang taken from black twitter and nightmares of wild-eyed black brutes leveling cities and slaughtering thousands. Wanna discuss mass rapes of white women as well? Teach cops to behave themselves around black and indigenous people. Tell them to stop choking people out over "loitering" or "smell of marijuana", move more of them into detective units, test the rape kit backlog (and I mean *all* of them) and let people in summer spray each other with water guns without flipping out.

And if there's a protest, just move back, wear the normal uniform, and let everyone march and chant.

I mean, I grew up in one of these communities, and mentored kids in another. I've been saying the same thing for years, based on what every person has said. This Is Not Difficult. Oh, and they can't have their MRAPs and tear gas and the like. They keep hitting other people with their toys, so they lose them.

Damn, how racist was your post is what I want to know. What in the name of Beelzebub makes you think they want anything but to not worry about having their lives ruined or ended whenever the cops show up? We've been screaming it, in unison, for ******* decades!

Sounds like the truth hurts. Good.

Understand that I am not trying to win points, or score gotchas. You have thousands of people who are advocating for sending hundreds or thousands of people to their deaths. With many of those deaths are from the same groups of people who they are disingenuously pretending to help support. All because they refuse to look at the deadly problems of the 'defund the police' and 'abolish the police' slogans.


Simply put, Social Services is not some magic buzz word that you can just click your red heels together three times and say the magic words, and all of societies problems will go away. There are some situations where more social workers would make a positive difference like mental health crises, and some situations like armed robberies, or rapes, or murder investigations where replacing police with social workers would just end up leading to more assaults and murders.

I certainly do not doubt that those people supporting these policies mean well. However, the people who refuse to look at the problems of the defund the police movement because it is too much effort to think about, just shows that they are more interested in quickly clearing their conscious from any guilt they may feel from the social inequities in our society, than they are in making real and meaningful positive change. A terribly selfish move that they are willing to make, even at the cost of the lives of the people that they are pretending to support.

The people who die from that irresponsible plan are not just cold statistics, but real people with families, and hopes, and dreams. Their cries for pain are ignored because it is not politically convenient for some people to think about. Those deaths are ignored, along with the evidence that shows that cuts in police without a real replacement for the public services they provide, just leads to more murders. All because it does not fit the defund supporters political biases to honestly consider.


You have thousands of people happily about to claim hundreds or thousands of lives with the same heartless disinterest as seasoned murderers. All for largely their own selfish reasons.

If people feel slight discomfort before they go on to commit mass murder, it is hard to feel sorry for them.