Results of the Mavi Marmara Attack

[Virus]

Please don't group us all together as one Israeli hate machine.

Yeah but from what I can see, leftists who support Israel are about as common as leftists who support George Bush.

 

[a_unique_person]

I agree with your assessment. But the Islamists and leftists wanted hate and to stoke the flames of Israel Derangement Syndrome. Overall I think the world hates Israel just a bit more now.

I think statements like that say far more about you than 'leftists'.

 

[Paranormal Inquirer]

Yeah but from what I can see, leftists who support Israel are about as common as leftists who support George Bush.

Oh come on, we're not that uncommon:

Alan Grayson
Anthony Weiner
Brad Sherman
Al Franken
Chuck Schumer
Rahm Emanuel

Keep in mind that those are high ranking politicians and those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head right now.

Honestly, the way I see it is that Israel represents the true virtues of liberalism with their championing of democratic values and secular rulings. It makes no sense to see why a leftist (like me) would support an organization (Hamas) which believes in archaic laws.

 

[Paranormal Inquirer]

Sorry. I keep forgetting there's more than one hate machine in Israel... you leftists are divided evenly between them I guess...

I see your point, but I'm really quite embarrassed that the same liberals who claim to support the ideals of progressiveness and liberty go on to defend Hamas' actions and demonize the only true democratic state in the Middle East.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yeah but from what I can see, leftists who support Israel are about as common as leftists who support George Bush.

Does support mean unquestioning support? I don't support the destruction of Israel, I support it's existence as a state, and think a two state solution is the best compromise available. For some reason, I am supposed to want it's destruction and it's Jewish inhabitants slaughtered because I don't agree with it's policy towards the Palestinians.

 

[a_unique_person]

I see your point, but I'm really quite embarrassed that the same liberals who claim to support the ideals of progressiveness and liberty go on to defend Hamas' actions and demonize the only true democratic state in the Middle East.

What actions of Hamas have been supported?

 

[Virus]

Does support mean unquestioning support? I don't support the destruction of Israel, I support it's existence as a state, and think a two state solution is the best compromise available. For some reason, I am supposed to want it's destruction and it's Jewish inhabitants slaughtered because I don't agree with it's policy towards the Palestinians.

Everyone says that. But some people only "support Israel" to clear their throat before going on rants about the apartheid terrorist Nazi state and sympathizing with Hezbollah and Hamas.

 

[Skeptic]

There could be -- and were -- books written about the cognitive dissonance in the left, which claims to fight for rights and equality but joins forces with the world's most repressive and dark forces, with people who openly support genocide, theocracy, subjugation of women and non-believers, and who would put them all up against the wall if they could. But, as you say, JohnTheRevelator, this certainly doesn't include all of the left.

 

[quixotecoyote]

There could be -- and were -- books written about the cognitive dissonance in the left, which claims to fights for rights and equality but joins forces with the world's most repressive and dark forces, with people who openly support genocide, theocracy, subjugation of women and non-believers, and who would put them all up against the wall if they could. But, as you say, JohnTheRevelator, this certainly doesn't include all of the left.

I think the edit makes it more fair.

 

[Virus]

There could be -- and were -- books written about the cognitive dissonance in the left, which claims to fight for rights and equality but joins forces with the world's most repressive and dark forces, with people who openly support genocide, theocracy, subjugation of women and non-believers, and who would put them all up against the wall if they could. But, as you say, JohnTheRevelator, this certainly doesn't include all of the left.

Well I never meant 100%. Nick Cohen, Oliver Kamm and Paul Berman consider themselves leftists and I respect those guys a lot. I use "leftists" to refer to guys like Noam Chomsky, Tariq Ali, John Pilger and twits like this:

http://www.zombietime.com/iraq_war_fifth_anniversary_protest/commie_can_you_hear_me/

And those guys are about as pro-Israel as they are pro-Bush.

 

[portlandatheist]

A very good book on this topic is Nick Cohen's "What is Left?"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-Liberals-Lost-Their/dp/0007229690
The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values. I don't understand the affinity that some leftists have with movements that are clearly against their stated values to the point of absurdity such as "Queers for Palestine"

 

[quixotecoyote]

The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values. I don't understand the affinity that some leftists have with movements that are clearly against their stated values to the point of absurdity such as "Queers for Palestine"

Yeah, that.

And on a separate note, I like the zombietime blog as it's a useful resource for pointing out the excesses of fringers, but sometimes I have to block out the commentary like:

Now, to be frank, I don't think that these up-front kind of communist groups have any real chance of success at actually overthrowing the American system by force. They're almost buffoonish in their obviousness. But who I really do worry about are the "stealth communists," who introduce Marxist thought and collectivist philosophy into academia and mainstream entertainment without announcing what they're doing. These much more clever communist ideologues follow (knowingly or not) the writings of Antonio Gramsci, the Italian communist theorist who proposed infiltrating the schools and the media so as to subtly indoctrinate generations of youngsters, eventually paving the way for a "soft revolution" once a tipping point is reached in society. Already, Marxist thought patterns have become so standard in American mainstream cultural discourse that most people don't even know they're mimicking communist slogans.

http://www.zombietime.com/iraq_war_fifth_anniversary_protest/commie_can_you_hear_me/

 

[Paranormal Inquirer]

The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values.

Thanks for the new sig.

 

[Virus]

A very good book on this topic is Nick Cohen's "What is Left?"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-Liberals-Lost-Their/dp/0007229690
The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values. I don't understand the affinity that some leftists have with movements that are clearly against their stated values to the point of absurdity such as "Queers for Palestine"

Cohen's book can't be recommended enough. Required reading.

The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values.

Amen to that.

Regarding your question:

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.html#summary

The Palestinians "hit the right buttons" as he puts it. There's a few other reasons;

The left used to support third world communist guerrilla movements which have all dried up. The terrorist wing of the German left used to directly co-operate with the PLO. The Islamist militias like Hamas and Hezbollah fill that void. Hezbollah know this, and are particular adept at speaking to western audiences and using words like "resistance" and "imperialism" and saving the real loony stuff for domestic audiences. That's why Noam Chomsky is an ardent Hezbollah supporter.

I think there's a tendency for people to take on ideology lock-stock and barrel, and adopt "laundry lists" of beliefs. This is more common on the extremist fringes where the groups and parties start getting weird and cultish. Against war in Iraq? Then you'd better be against the "apartheid wall" too.

 

[Paranormal Inquirer]

I think there's a tendency for people to take on ideology lock-stock and barrel, and adopt "laundry lists" of beliefs. This is more common on the extremist fringes where the groups and parties start getting weird and cultish. Against war in Iraq? Then you'd better be against the "apartheid wall" too.

Well said. Bravo!

 

[a_unique_person]

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.html#summary

They are fighting against Jews - always a popular target throughout history. The world has not changed that much. Prejudices don't die overnight. After Auschwitz, the world should have changed forever. But it didn't.

What a load of bollocks.

 

[Virus]

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.html#summary

What a load of bollocks.

They flirt pretty closely with antisemitism and support virulent antisemites like Hamas and Hezbollah. Then there's all that "Jewish lobby" stuff.

 

[The Fool]

A very good book on this topic is Nick Cohen's "What is Left?"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-Liberals-Lost-Their/dp/0007229690
The entire reason I support Israel is because I'm pro democracy, secularism, equal protection under the law for all races/religions, gay rights and other liberal values.

I agree with what you say...except for when you assign to Israel equal protection under the law for all races and religions. This is curious, do you believe there is no difference between Jews and non jews in Israel? It seems to me there is obviously a difference if its the home of the jews....so how is this difference administered if not by laws?


I find this strange....

 

[GrandMasterFox]

I agree with what you say...except for when you assign to Israel equal protection under the law for all races and religions. This is curious, do you believe there is no difference between Jews and non jews in Israel? It seems to me there is obviously a difference if its the home of the jews....so how is this difference administered if not by laws?


I find this strange....

Out of curiosity, how much do you know about Israel?
A slight remember to those who forgot \ unaware -
Israel is by definition a jewish state.
The United States of America are by definition a secular state.

Yes for some odd reason, Israel does not teach creationisim in science classes, it let's gays serve in the military with no problems, no problem with abortions, it doesn't have prayers in public schools and there is no swearing or trusting of god in its currency or court houses.
Heck even though bible classes are mandatory as part of the highschool diploma, it is being taught in most public schools completely secular the same way other folks study shakespear or whatever. The word "forgery" is mentioned there a lot...

It doesn't matter how you look at it, Israel is far more secular than the USA and provides a bigger stance on equal rights.

Even though it's true that there is a line that would never be crossed, for example - no secular marraige can be conducted in the countrry, it has no problem when you fly off to cyprus or wherever and then come back which is quite popular these days.

 

[The Fool]

Out of curiosity, how much do you know about Israel?
A slight remember to those who forgot \ unaware -
Israel is by definition a jewish state.
The United States of America are by definition a secular state.

Yes for some odd reason, Israel does not teach creationisim in science classes, it let's gays serve in the military with no problems, no problem with abortions, it doesn't have prayers in public schools and there is no swearing or trusting of god in its currency or court houses.
Heck even though bible classes are mandatory as part of the highschool diploma, it is being taught in most public schools completely secular the same way other folks study shakespear or whatever. The word "forgery" is mentioned there a lot...

It doesn't matter how you look at it, Israel is far more secular than the USA and provides a bigger stance on equal rights.

Even though it's true that there is a line that would never be crossed, for example - no secular marraige can be conducted in the countrry, it has no problem when you fly off to cyprus or wherever and then come back which is quite popular these days.

struggling to see how your post addresses my question.

"It seems to me there is obviously a difference if its the home of the jews....so how is this difference administered if not by laws?"

are you saying there is no difference between how the government deals with Jews and non jews in Israel. Or there is a difference but its not administered or driven by laws...? Or maybe you are saying there are inequalities under the law and are rationalizing it?

could you clarify?