Results of the Mavi Marmara Attack

[Virus]

struggling to see how your post addresses my question.

"It seems to me there is obviously a difference if its the home of the jews....so how is this difference administered if not by laws?"

are you saying there is no difference between how the government deals with Jews and non jews in Israel. Or there is a difference but its not administered or driven by laws...? Or maybe you are saying there are inequalities under the law and are rationalizing it?

could you clarify?

Legally there is no difference. If individuals practice discrimination then that's in spite of the law.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Legally there is no siginifcant difference. If individuals practice discrimination then that's in spite of the law.

I fixed that for you.

Yes, there is some difference but it's hardly felt.
Non-jews can do whatever the heck they want including serving in parliment and there are several Arab parties in parliment for many years now.

There are certain restrictions as I mentioned such as marriage, but they have alternatives available.

 

[marksman]

IIRC, the marriage restrictions affect everyone. Simply put, Israel does not recognize civil marriages. But they recognize religious marriages, from Jews, Muslims, and Christians, and others. But interfaith marriages have a very hard time. They basically have to go to a county and get a civil marriage there that is recognized in Israel. (Cyrpus is a popular destination.)

There may be other instance of de jure discrimination. (The Law of Return, for example.) I am not sufficiently familiar with Israeli law to say one way or another.

 

[Pardalis]

And here we go, another topic successfully derailed.

I thought this was about the Mavi Marmara incident?

 

[marksman]

You are correct, Pardalis. I apologize for my participation in the derail.

 

[mortimer]

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.html#summary


What a load of bollocks.

That must be why someone from the Mavi Marmara shouted "Go back to Auschwitz" over the radio. Because they're not anti-Jew.

 

[Skeptic]

It doesn't matter how you look at it, Israel is far more secular than the USA and provides a bigger stance on equal rights.

As an Israeli, I would say this depends on what you mean by "secular". There are many religious people and many synagogues, mosques, churches, etc., so I am not sure the proportion of religious people is lower. What is true, however, is that the American displays of religion in public (e.g., in parks etc. as opposed to in actual houses of worship) is far less common.

E.g., while practically every Jewish family, including the non-observant, light Hannukah candles, there are much fewer public menorah lightings. Perhaps a few "official" ones (lighted by the President, Prime Minister, by the Chief of Staff on an Army base, etc.), but nothing comparable to the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree, for instance.

It's not so much that people are less religious, but that religion is less a public spectacle (as opposed to simply seeing many religious people).

 

[WildCat]

Out of curiosity, how much do you know about Israel?
A slight remember to those who forgot \ unaware -
Israel is by definition a jewish state.
The United States of America are by definition a secular state.

Yes for some odd reason, Israel does not teach creationisim in science classes, it let's gays serve in the military with no problems, no problem with abortions, it doesn't have prayers in public schools and there is no swearing or trusting of god in its currency or court houses.
Heck even though bible classes are mandatory as part of the highschool diploma, it is being taught in most public schools completely secular the same way other folks study shakespear or whatever. The word "forgery" is mentioned there a lot...

It doesn't matter how you look at it, Israel is far more secular than the USA and provides a bigger stance on equal rights.

Even though it's true that there is a line that would never be crossed, for example - no secular marraige can be conducted in the countrry, it has no problem when you fly off to cyprus or wherever and then come back which is quite popular these days.

Odd, isn't it, how Israel's role as a homeland for the Jewish disapora is roundly criticised and demonized, yet when other countries do it there's no such outcry.

For example, Ireland actively encourages the Irish diaspora to return to Ireland, good luck finding any threads here on Ireland's racist immigration policies.

eta: and the swearing on the Bible in court only happens in Hollywood movies, I've never seen this in real life.

 

[The Fool]

Legally there is no difference. If individuals practice discrimination then that's in spite of the law.

this is incorrect...


apologies to everyone for the derail and my part in it but I have a policy of correcting the erroneous claim that all israels citizens are equal before the law each and every time its made. I'm sorry but I will do it the next time too.

 

[The Fool]

For example, Ireland actively encourages the Irish diaspora to return to Ireland, good luck finding any threads here on Ireland's racist immigration policies.

good luck finding someone to be an apologist for it.

 

[Mycroft]

good luck finding someone to be an apologist for it.

The point is you can't find anyone condemning them for it. And if Ireland offers preferential treatment to immigrants of Irish ancestry, you don't find people automatically assuming that immigrants of different ancestry are second-class citizens. Could it be true? Sure, but show me the evidence before I subscribe.

Which is reasonable. If bits of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria broke off to form Kurdistan, dominated by Kurdish people, I wouldn't automatically assume that non-Kurds in the new country were discriminated against either.

And put me down for not being bothered by Ireland actively encourages the Irish diaspora to return to Ireland.

 

[The Fool]

The point is you can't find anyone condemning them for it. And if Ireland offers preferential treatment to immigrants of Irish ancestry, you don't find people automatically assuming that immigrants of different ancestry are second-class citizens. Could it be true? Sure, but show me the evidence before I subscribe.

Which is reasonable. If bits of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria broke off to form Kurdistan, dominated by Kurdish people, I wouldn't automatically assume that non-Kurds in the new country were discriminated against either.

And put me down for not being bothered by Ireland actively encourages the Irish diaspora to return to Ireland.

shall I point out the glaringly obvious difference?


ok, why not.


Ireland has preferential treatment for ancestors of irish citizens to come back.....I have no problem with that.

Israel has preferential treatment for ancestors of Israeli citizens to come back.....ooops, hang on....


Ireland is the home of the irish....not "some of the irish"


do you believe that Jews should have equal rights everywhere in the world that they live? I do.....you don't. You would be disgusted with the prospect of jews being second class citizens of any nation.......not so concerned if its arabs.

 

[Mycroft]

shall I point out the glaringly obvious difference?


ok, why not.


Ireland has preferential treatment for ancestors of irish citizens to come back.....I have no problem with that.

Israel has preferential treatment for ancestors of Israeli citizens to come back.....ooops, hang on....

I don't see the difference that you do. If a person of Irish descent is a generation removed from anyone who lived in Ireland, they're not really "going back" either. So what difference does it make? Some of my ancestors come from Sweden, but if I went there I wouldn't be "going back" to anything. I'd be visiting for the first time.

Ireland is the home of the irish....not "some of the irish"

Except it is home to "some" of the Irish. If you're Irish and living somewhere else, Ireland isn't your home. You could make it your home, but until you do, it's not.

do you believe that Jews should have equal rights everywhere in the world that they live? I do.....you don't. You would be disgusted with the prospect of jews being second class citizens of any nation.......not so concerned if its arabs.

I think everyone should have equal rights everywhere, but I don't think we need to be blind to culture and ethnicity either.

 

[The Fool]

I don't see the difference that you do.

can't help you if you can't see a difference between citizenship and ethnicity....really can't help you.

I think everyone should have equal rights everywhere, but I don't think we need to be blind to culture and ethnicity either.

no you don't....you do not believe that non jews should be equal to Jews in israel. You specifically support this concept that Israel is "the home of some of its citizens".

not really interested in going off on a wild goose chase with you trying to determine what your opinion is.


you rejoice in Israels right to be discriminatory.....you always have and always will.....why must we go through this tap dancing session every time its mentioned?

 

[Pardalis]

What do the policies of Israeli citizenship have to do with the Mavi Marmara incident again?

 

[The Fool]

What do the policies of Israeli citizenship have to do with the Mavi Marmara incident again?

nothing.....but should we all just let false claims go by unchallenged? If I said to you that Israel is wrong in what they did on the vessel because the earth is flat.....nobody allowed to debunk my flat earth claims??

I agree its frustrating but lying for Israel is a common hobby.

 

[Pardalis]

nothing

Good, then maybe you'd like to take your ramblings to another thread?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

nothing.....but should we all just let false claims go by unchallenged? If I said to you that Israel is wrong in what they did on the vessel because the earth is flat.....nobody allowed to debunk my flat earth claims??

I agree its frustrating but lying for Israel is a common hobby.

You mean like claims about the activists on the boat being peaceful? Like the claims that they didn't have any weapons? Like the claims that they didn't initiate the attacks?

Yes they should be challenged. You seem to have a problem when we challenge them.

 

[The Fool]

You mean like claims about the activists on the boat being peaceful? Like the claims that they didn't have any weapons? Like the claims that they didn't initiate the attacks?

Yes they should be challenged. You seem to have a problem when we challenge them.

Ive tried to be patient but you are habitual. Welcome to ignore.

 

[The Fool]

Good, then maybe you'd like to take your ramblings to another thread?

I'll always challenge lies or is that now wrong?