Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[Alt+F4]

I don't think this is about politics. I don't think this is about gun control. I think it's about how mental illness is regarded and treated (not treated) in the United States.

 

[USEagle13]

How do you know that it was Gifford's who was targeted?

Thankfully, she's still alive.

However, Federal Judge John M. Roll, appointed by Republican George H W Bush, was killed.

The 22 year old perp is evil and deserves the death sentence ASAP. Tax payer money should not be wasted keeping evil like this alive so it car further infect others in jail. Jail is a breeding ground for CT's, anti-govt, and anti-society propaganda. They usually come out as worse criminals than before.

As far as the Wheeler murder I find it funny the FBI wasn't involved from day 1. Oh wait....I forgot....he was a Republican and the FBI is controlled by liberals now whom are Bush haters anyways; so that explains that one....

 

[Alt+F4]

The 22 year old perp is evil...

Evil, huh? How do you know that?

 

[TraneWreck]

Here's an interesting run-down of violent events since the Supreme Court affirmed that the Second Amendment grants citizens the right to take violent action against the government should it become "tyrannical" (District of Columbia v. Heller, 2008):
http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline

Some examples, but I would recommend reading the whole thing:

July 27, 2008—Jim Adkisson shoots and kills two people at a progressive church in Knoxville, Tennessee, wounding two. Adkisson calls it “a symbolic killing” because he really “wanted to kill…every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book,” but was unable to gain access to them.

April 25, 2009—Joshua Cartwright, 28, a member of the Florida National Guard, shoots and kills two Okaloosa County sheriff's deputies attempting to arrest him on a domestic abuse charge. Cartwright is killed in an enusing gun battle with police. Cartwright's wife reports that he was "severely disturbed" that Barack Obama had been elected president. Okaloosa County Sheriff Edward Spooner states that Cartrwight was "interested in militia groups and weapons training."

June 24, 2009—Hal Turner, a New Jersey resident and white supremacist blogger/radio host, is arrested again after calling for the murder of three Republican-appointed jurists on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals who had issued a June 2 decision upholding handgun restrictions in Chicago. Writing on his blog, Turner says, “Let me be the first to say this plainly: these judges deserve to be killed,” and includes photographs, phone numbers, work addresses, and room numbers of the judges, as well as a map of Chicago’s federal courthouse which points out its “anti-truck bomb” pylons.

So let me express the point I was trying to make earlier in a slightly different manner. A lot of the politically motivated violence that's going on in this country is sliding under the radar. We're rocking ourselves to sleep each night with the assumption that there are just crazy people in the world and that's all there is to it.

Growing up in Kansas, however, I see DIRECT parallels between the sort of bombastic, heated rhetoric coming from the right (NOW, not always, not forever, NOW) and the insane doomsday stuff coming from the anti-abortion group. We know that the anti-abortion community has promoted and celebrated the murder of a number of doctors and health care workers.

Thus, regardless of why this person attacked the crowd, this high-profile, public attack needs to serve as a wake-up call.

Nancy Pelosi, who was on the San Francisco city council when Harvey Milk was assassinated, made this statement about the violence:

I wish we would all curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements and understand that some of the ears that it is falling on are not a balanced as the person making the statements may assume.

Notice the title of that clip. She was MOCKED for that statement.

Here was Beck's reaction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmNVBaGF0Q&feature=player_embedded#t=21s

Found at: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/nothing-to-see-here-folks.html

This stuff isn't funny. It's not something to be glib about. This goes for both parties, but let's not behave like some vapid David Broder acolyte an pretend that it's a symmetrical issue.

This shooting doesn't prove tax cuts for the wealthy are a bad idea, it doesn't prove that nationalized health care is more efficient, it doesn't prove that abortion should be legal, but IT DOES PROVE that this gun-fetishizing bravado, this urge to paint political opponents and "Un-American" or "Communist" or "destroying the country" needs to STOP.

We've seen what happens when communities demonize and dehumanize opponents while calling for violence--it's called Palestine, it's South Africa under appartheid, it's the violent anti-abortion groups in this country.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

People who knew him said he was a pot smoking Liberal.

I'd be interested in knowing by what criteria these people labeled him a liberal. Nothing I've seen indicates that he labeled himself as such.

I wonder, because it seems to me that "liberal" is often used as a derogatory label for anyone that has "wacky" ideas.

Although, it wouldn't surprise me if he was atheist. His bizarre statements With "BCE" and "ADE" (Which I don't think is an actual thing) make it hard to tell.

BCE can stand for "Before the Common Era", "Before the Christian Era", or "Before the Current Era". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era

Not sure about ADE, though...

 

[Spindrift]

I'd be interested in knowing by what criteria these people labeled him a liberal. Nothing I've seen indicates that he labeled himself as such.

I wonder, because it seems to me that "liberal" is often used as a derogatory label for anyone that has "wacky" ideas.

Are they confusing libertarian and liberal?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think so. The shooters myspace rants seem to be channeling Ron Paul.

 

[EatatJoes]

I was watching Fox News Sunday and it was stated that he may have been part of a group that had anti-Semitic views....

This guy is a nut. Perhaps he is a product of both bad wiring and the internet. The internet makes it possible for the nutters to congregate and share their nuttiness. I don't think it was "main-stream" political discourse that motivated him to do this. All this talk about "watching what we say" and Congress-people wondering if they should "beef up their security", although a natural reaction to this event, isn't really needed. It's not needed if this guy was just a nut. Nuts happen.

And shouldn't we have some perspective? It was my understand that political discourse is quite tame compared to what was said 100 years ago. It's just that the internet makes those comments available to a wider audience.

I guess I just don't quite understand what seems to be an over-analysis of this event. Sometimes weird **** happens and sometimes that **** is tragic. I really don't think we can prevent this type of thing from happening.

 

[babycondor]

.... I actually do delight in seeing all the vitriol. Because I know a house divided against itself cannot stand.

"He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind." Proverbs 11:29

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

this gun-fetishizing bravado, this urge to paint political opponents and "Un-American" or "Communist" or "destroying the country" needs to STOP.

You mean like this democrats campaign ad?



And by "un-american", you must be referring to Nancy Pelosi's description of peaceful protesters.

 

[thaiboxerken]

"He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind." Proverbs 11:29

Right, because there hasn't been heated threads on this forum before.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You mean like this democrats campaign ad?

And by "un-american", you must be referring to Nancy Pelosi's description of peaceful protesters.

Yes, democrats have been guilty of this as well.

The problem is, it's not democrats that are forming the militia movement and talking about second amendment solutions.

 

[Varanid]

I posted my thoughts a few pages back, and stick by them, though I have to say the following:

Fact- There has been a significant ground swell of overtly violent rhetoric among one side of the political spectrum over the last 2-3 years. This has been demonstrated (evidence) in a number of ways (as has been listed above) including:

Protesters armed with rifles, pistols, etc.
Calls to "take back the government" along with allusions to the 2nd amendment.
Violent imagery used for campaign purposes.

Now, as before I said the suspect in question is (IMO) loony and acting out against authority in general and was likely not solely influenced by the above.

HOWEVER, neglecting to examine the potential that he was influenced by this rhetoric, etc. is just silly.

Speculation is not incongruent with skepticism. Holding something as true without evidence is at odds with skepticism. See the difference?

 

[DavidJames]

...but IT DOES PROVE that this gun-fetishizing bravado, this urge to paint political opponents and "Un-American" or "Communist" or "destroying the country" needs to STOP.

It would be refreshing to see Republicans respond to such ads without a Tu Quoque argument.

History tells me I shouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Travis]

Interesting that you went from this:



To this:

I fail to see a contradiction. In one I note that, based on his Youtube videos, he's likely associated with the conspiracy movement which turned out to be true. In the other I note that debating his involvement is irrelevant to policy decisions.

As far as the Wheeler murder I find it funny the FBI wasn't involved from day 1. Oh wait....I forgot....he was a Republican and the FBI is controlled by liberals now whom are Bush haters anyways; so that explains that one....

What?

 

[Father Dagon]

Yep. If there were a couple of Second Amendment Superheroes in the crowd, then only 1-2 people would have been shot. By the gunman. Of course, 160 or so would have been shot and 50 or so killed from all the bullets flying around.

Yeah, but it's all the gunman's fault. XD

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10 <- the shooters youtube.

All saved at highest quality.

And let's not forget it is the nutjobs being influenced by the rhetoric that is the problem. The problem is not the mainstream right wing voters taking the rhetoric literally.

I beg to differ. Even if there was no cases of violence, the inflamed rhetoric simply obfuscates the issues. Everyone is made a (dumber) looser.

Once you watch the video, you can see how he'll have plausible deniability for responsibility for his actions.

ETA: Nope. Just weird, but not necessarily crazy.

Ok, he committed mass murder. But dodging jail by being declared legally insane is by no means something good. There's cases in Sweden where persons are kept in mental instituions for decades or life for crimes that would've awarded them a few months in prison. That's because the psychiatrist aren't as formal as the legal experts.

As for the possible book list: This really means nothing. I have Republican friends that would list Animal Farm and the Communist Manifesto as favorites and Jewish friends that would do the same of Mein Kampf. Favorite does not mean being in agreement with. Personally, the bible is one of my favorite anthologies. Also I am an atheist.

His youtube videos on the other hand do present a case for anti-authortarian streak and as a gold/silver CTer.

/thread

Judging a person by the books is so pedestrian.

It's because Arizona doesn't have daylight savings time. Sometimes it is on Pacific time.

What? Didn't the US as a whole get DST in the 60's?

 

[TraneWreck]

You mean like this democrats campaign ad?



And by "un-american", you must be referring to Nancy Pelosi's description of peaceful protesters.

This was literally the worst possible way to answer my point.

Go to that link. Look at the LONG list of violence and threats of violence over the last two years. Take this simple fact:

October 18-19, 2009—Reports emerge that the Secret Service has received an unprecedented number of death threats against President Obama. Ronald Kessler's account of presidential security, In the President's Secret Service, states that there has been a 400% increase in such threats in comparison with Obama’s predecessor. Another source of these reports is an August 5, 2009 study by the Congressional Research Service which finds: “The [Secret] Service’s protection mission has increased and become more ‘urgent’ due to the increase in terrorist threats and the expanded arsenal of weapons that terrorists could use in an assassination attempt or attacks on facilities.”

Obviously people say stupid things on both sides (though it's no small distinction that Pelosi referred to the act of shouting down speakers at town halls "un-American, vs. calling the people themselves un-American--as in Commies or Kenyan-muslim-communist-terrorist-Hitlers).

There is no equivalency. It wasn't always that way, it won't always be that way, but right now the violence is on the right.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Here's an interesting run-down of violent events since the Supreme Court affirmed that the Second Amendment grants citizens the right to take violent action against the government should it become "tyrannical" (District of Columbia v. Heller, 2008):
http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline

Some examples, but I would recommend reading the whole thing:







So let me express the point I was trying to make earlier in a slightly different manner. A lot of the politically motivated violence that's going on in this country is sliding under the radar. We're rocking ourselves to sleep each night with the assumption that there are just crazy people in the world and that's all there is to it.

Growing up in Kansas, however, I see DIRECT parallels between the sort of bombastic, heated rhetoric coming from the right (NOW, not always, not forever, NOW) and the insane doomsday stuff coming from the anti-abortion group. We know that the anti-abortion community has promoted and celebrated the murder of a number of doctors and health care workers.

Thus, regardless of why this person attacked the crowd, this high-profile, public attack needs to serve as a wake-up call.

Nancy Pelosi, who was on the San Francisco city council when Harvey Milk was assassinated, made this statement about the violence:





Notice the title of that clip. She was MOCKED for that statement.

Here was Beck's reaction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmNVBaGF0Q&feature=player_embedded#t=21s

Found at: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/nothing-to-see-here-folks.html

This stuff isn't funny. It's not something to be glib about. This goes for both parties, but let's not behave like some vapid David Broder acolyte an pretend that it's a symmetrical issue.

This shooting doesn't prove tax cuts for the wealthy are a bad idea, it doesn't prove that nationalized health care is more efficient, it doesn't prove that abortion should be legal, but IT DOES PROVE that this gun-fetishizing bravado, this urge to paint political opponents and "Un-American" or "Communist" or "destroying the country" needs to STOP.

We've seen what happens when communities demonize and dehumanize opponents while calling for violence--it's called Palestine, it's South Africa under appartheid, it's the violent anti-abortion groups in this country.

A wake-up call to what?

That there are violent nuts in the world? We all know that. Violence happens. Especially when the economy feels like it's in the *******. People's specific circumstances begin to feel dire and they react in less-than-ideal ways.

Should the rhetoric be toned down? Sure, I'd like to see less violent rhetoric, but that doesn't mean we should misrepresent this guys' violence for something that it's not. As Jon Stewart said at his rally (paraphrased): make those people work for the title and hold them accountable on their own accord.

Hold Palin and her camp accountable for their rhetoric because it's their rhetoric, not because some whackjob shooting up a crowd was falsely attributed to Palin, et al, because of personal biases.

 

[USEagle13]

No, what is being argued is that Palin's map used gun-related imagery to target individuals, while the other map used dart/chain retail store imagery to target districts. There's a significant difference. One has an implicit threat of violence towards someone, the other doesn't.

Look, I'm not on the "Blame Palin" bandwagon, but I've always found that map offensive. I'm glad it's down now, and I hope it stays down.

I disagree. You can buy gun targets with the classical Red-White bulls eye configuration.

Also, the Call of Duty series could be blamed for gun violence too if you wanna go the route of blaming other people for other peoples actions. It has the player killing either Americans, Arabs, or Russians. Just depends on what side you are on for that particular level.

And on Call of Duty Modern Warfare you do a mission where you "are Russian terrorists" in a mall. The objective in that one is to kill as many innocent mall shoppers as possible and the character you are is an American working for the Russians whom is the only one shot and killed.

That dead character gets set up by the Russians to make the people think Americans were responsible when the other 4 guys with you were Russians.

Sad thing is....parents let their lil tween kids play it

 

[I Ratant]

And some of her facebook followers took it to heart:

[qimg]http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg611/scaled.php?tn=0&server=611&filename=pcdz.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640[/qimg]

To Palin's credit, she's been removing those comments.

.
That's a keeper!