Rapture - 23rd September 2015

[barehl]

So no... generation (γενεὰ) in Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32 does not mean the Jews... it means

The people born and living at the time Jesus was making the promise, considered as a group​

Now that was an informative post. And so was this one:

Whereas for meanings like "birth" we can find examples of uses like that in Xenophon or Herodotus, or we can find plenty of use in the same way as we talk about "Generation X" (i.e., all people in an age group or evenj all living at the same time), we do not have that support in assuming it to mean "race".

 

[barehl]

Dang, your bias is showing. I can honestly say I've never seen a more energetic attempt to offend the Jesus lovers. And to throw in antisemitism to boot. Your post demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the texts of the Bible. I find your presentation lacking, filled with uneducated assumptions and more to do with hate speech rather than any sort of educated debate.

As opposed to this one which contains nothing more than ad hominems and assertions but no references.

 

[Peregrinus]

What absurdity. It is the very SAME link which explains the Rapture.

The absurdity comes in supposing there is an explanation - aside from delusion - for the rapture.

 

[dejudge]

I have told you exactly in what sense it is a recent invention. If you can read and understand, then perhaps you can comment on what I actually wrote, instead of repeatedly churning out the same drivel hundreds and hundreds of times in succession.

For the millionth time what you said did not make sense.

I think that's because Jesus never referred to a "rapture" in any way at all. It's the invention of modern minds.

The very link you referenced contradicts you. Christians use words attributed to Jesus to claim there will be a rapture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

In Christian eschatology the rapture refers to the belief that either before, or simultaneously with, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, believers who have died will be raised and believers who are still alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected dead believers) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.[1] [2]

The concept has its basis in various interpretations of the biblical book of First Thessalonians[3]and how it relates to interpretations of various other biblical passages, such as those from Second Thessalonians, Gospel of Matthew, First Corinthians and the Book of Revelation.[3]

The rapture is NOT a modern invention. Manuscripts of the NT have been found and dated to the 2nd-3rd century.

The teaching of the rapture is at least 1700-1800 years old and may even be part of the propaganda that initiated the Jesus cult.

 

[barehl]

Many people seem to be applying the Daniel’s seventy-weeks prophecy to this, and they have managed to bring the date to this year's Yom Kippur date, even though this specific Jewish holiday happens every year between near the end of September and the start of October. Also there is some interpretation issues as well, what reason is there to count from the 7th June 1967?

I've always thought this was kind of crazy to cherry pick random verses and try to fit them in somewhere. Daniel came before Revelations so I assume anything in Daniel would also happen before anything in Revelations. What is interesting is that I seem to recall that one of the writers around the time of Jesus stated that some of the prophecy of Revelations had already occurred in his lifetime. I seem to recall this reference from Johnson's Notes On The Bible but I don't have a copy handy to check.

 

[steve s]

All this talk about the meaning of the word "generation" is rather moot, because in Luke 9:27, Jesus says "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

There's no way you can spin the phrase "some who are standing here" into meaning some future generation.

Steve S

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

The point, however, is that we CAN find plenty of people referring to it as "car", "automobile", or "vehicle". If they told me to get into the tent, I wouldn't look around for a car, just in case they meant a totally different meaning of the word than everyone else uses it for.

Basically, find similar support for the postulated meaning of "genea" and you might have an argument. Otherwise, I'm still not impressed.

In fact, otherwise it seems to me like funnily YOU are the one rewriting it by just postulating that word X actually means Y, and only in the place where you'd find it more palatable to read Y instead of X.

Ah, I see. You are once again trying to assign one definition to a word that has more than one definition. You can't see the parked car because there are too many vehicles in the way. As evidenced in the Strong's Concordance link, the word "generation" had more than one meaning. It is noteworthy to consider the questions answered in that one passage. There were three. That's the interesting part about the book. It's a text that teaches in parables. Literal interpretation of any one passage may be convenient for those with an agenda, but the entire methodology of the text demonstrates otherwise.

You must be of the view that the prophecy Jesus foretold must have been the fall of Jerusalem. I can understand that. Perhaps it was, and perhaps that was not the only meaning in the passage as well. If you wish to search for examples to assign a specific definition of one word as the only one and to be taken literally, you're not the first. In fact complete books have been written on just Matthew 24. I don't know of your study method, but I rarely read a passage from a book of parables as "literal".

Hilite portion:

I read from the view that I am looking at a parable. A tool for teaching. How to apply the correct definition of a single word is up to the reader. I do not "make up" definitions, I do "look up" definitions though just as someone would look in a dictionary today. Just as one word has many definitions, one passage has many different answers. And that's as it should be IMO. Am I correct in my particular interpretation? I think so and I realize there are others who agree or disagree with my interpretation. I'm fine with that.
Chris B.

 

[Craig B]

For the millionth time what you said did not make sense.

The very link you referenced contradicts you. Christians use words attributed to Jesus to claim there will be a rapture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

The rapture is NOT a modern invention. Manuscripts of the NT have been found and dated to the 2nd-3rd century.

The teaching of the rapture is at least 1700-1800 years old and may even be part of the propaganda that initiated the Jesus cult.

The Jesus cult was initiated 1700 years ago, Eh? Back to that, are we? No, I'll just repeat what I posted earlier.

I have told you exactly in what sense it is a recent invention. If you can read and understand, then perhaps you can comment on what I actually wrote, instead of repeatedly churning out the same drivel hundreds and hundreds of times in succession.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

As opposed to this one which contains nothing more than ad hominems and assertions but no references.

And the pot is calling the kettle black is it?
LMAO. Chris B.

 

[ddt]

Ah, I see. You are once again trying to assign one definition to a word that has more than one definition. You can't see the parked car because there are too many vehicles in the way.

I really don't understand what different synonyms for "motor vehicle" have to do with one word having different meanings.

As evidenced in the Strong's Concordance link, the word "generation" had more than one meaning.

Strong's Concordance is not inerrant. Hans has challenged the translation of γενεα with "race" or "people". And I agree with him; I'm not aware of this translation occurring anywhere else in Ancient or Koine Greek. Give us simply one other example, outside the Bible, of the use of γενεα in this meaning. Otherwise, it's simply special pleading.

And I'd add that it's not only the Gospels that claim that the Last Judgment will happen within their lifetime. Here is Paul in 1 Corinthians, Ch. 7:

25 Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 I think that, in view of the impending[e] crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life,[f] and I would spare you that. 29 I mean, brothers and sisters,[g] the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, 30 and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, 31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

That passage clearly conveys that Paul, too, thinks the Last Judgment will happen any moment, certainly within the lifetime of his audience.

 

[HansMustermann]

Ah, I see. You are once again trying to assign one definition to a word that has more than one definition. You can't see the parked car because there are too many vehicles in the way. As evidenced in the Strong's Concordance link, the word "generation" had more than one meaning. It is noteworthy to consider the questions answered in that one passage. There were three. That's the interesting part about the book. It's a text that teaches in parables. Literal interpretation of any one passage may be convenient for those with an agenda, but the entire methodology of the text demonstrates otherwise.

As evidenced by Strong's Concordance too, that word was not used anywhere else in that sense, except by one translator in exactly one saying by Jesus, and even the all the major translations and the majority of commentaries disagree with him: http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-34.htm

Which you would know if you actually understood what you're talking about. Which, frankly, you don't.

Maybe you should leave the apologetics, as well as the butthurt act about atheists with agenda, to the Xians. At least some of those do it better.

 

[barehl]

And the pot is calling the kettle black is it?
LMAO. Chris B.

I think you have the wrong fable. If I'm the metal pot then I would suggest that you are the clay pot, not a kettle. As I recall, you only gave two references:
Matthew 24:36 and Strong's. But, interestingly, you said:

Many passages are metaphoric and I can see why someone of a particular race would have a chip on their shoulder if they viewed the use of "generation" as a negative metaphor but that's simply not the case. The use of "generation" can also simply mean "race" without any negatives applied. The negatives would be in the mind of the reader if they exist IMO.

Let's go over Matthew 24.
the stars will fall from the sky

Is this literal or metaphoric? I don't know of any literal way for stars to fall from the sky so I would assume that it has to be metaphor. But what is annoying is that you cherry-picked the quote from Matthew:

Matthew 24:36

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

When you read from verse 32 the meaning becomes clear and exactly the opposite of what you've been claiming:

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The twigs and leaves reference is an obvious indicator that the time is near, not some time in the far distant future. This supports the interpretation of "this generation" as the current generation and not as a reference to Jews in general. This interpretation matches with the reference to summer because, while you might know that summer is near, you still don't know the exact hour and day that summer begins.

Further, there is no suggestion of people disappearing. Reading the entire passage:

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

It is clear that "one will be taken" is a reference to the flood and that it "took them all away". So, "taken" in this context means experiencing a tragedy, not disappearing like someone in a magic act. But even if someone was still confused by this passage, the message is repeated further down:

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that there is no mention of servants disappearing. One who is doing his duty is rewarded, and one who is not is punished. But, let's imagine that someone is still confused about the passage. Chapter 25 continues with additional examples. The parable of the brides is again about readiness:

25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.

Just like in Chapter 24, half are ready (wise) and half are not (foolish). No one disappears. The ones who are ready are rewarded while those who were not were punished. However, if you doubted that chapter 25 was a continuation, how could you miss that Matthew 25:13 repeats the line from Matthew 24:36?

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The parable after that says nothing about people disappearing. It talks about one servant who was trusted with five bags of gold and gained five more and was rewarded. The second buried the bag he was given and was punished. So, with the story of the servants, bad behavior was punished. However, with this one it is clearly stated that abstention is also punished. However, if someone doubted that this was an addition to the servant story you only have to note that 25:21 matches 24:45 and that 25:30 matches 24:51.

It is abundantly clear that a theme throughout is the idea of one good and one bad. This continues with the sheep and goat story. I mentioned the idea of selection as a reference to Passover. However, if someone really couldn't pick that reference out, it is mentioned explicitly in chapter 26:

17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’”

But let's go over this material in historic context. The first part of chapter 24 says:

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Now, it is well known that the book of Matthew was written after the book of Mark which was not written until after Jesus' death. Jesus died roughly in 36 AD. Thirty years later came the Jewish uprising. Four years after that, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. The logical assumption is that this passage was written after 70 AD and therefore was prophetic of nothing.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I really don't understand what different synonyms for "motor vehicle" have to do with one word having different meanings.

Strong's Concordance is not inerrant. Hans has challenged the translation of γενεα with "race" or "people". And I agree with him; I'm not aware of this translation occurring anywhere else in Ancient or Koine Greek. Give us simply one other example, outside the Bible, of the use of γενεα in this meaning. Otherwise, it's simply special pleading.

So your answer to finding the definition of γενεά to include meaning "race" in Strong's Concordance is that they may be in error? They got it wrong? Wow. "The Concordance is wrong"....Ahem.. okiedokie.

From Strong's Concordance: Original word γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ, transliteration: genea: race, family, generation

OK, maybe Strong's got it wrong because you say so. Let's look at the NAS Exhaustive Concordance.

From the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance:
From ginomai: race, family, generation

And there it is again. That word "race" is once again included in the definition, even in the NAS Exhaustive Concordance. Is it a conspiracy perhaps? How do you explain this fact that it is there?

Let's try Wiktionary: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/γενεά

γενεά • (geneá) (genitive γενεᾶς); f, first declension

birth
race, descent
generation
offspring



Hilite portion: Really now, you can't honestly expect to prevail by assigning homework.

And I'd add that it's not only the Gospels that claim that the Last Judgment will happen within their lifetime. Here is Paul in 1 Corinthians, Ch. 7:

That passage clearly conveys that Paul, too, thinks the Last Judgment will happen any moment, certainly within the lifetime of his audience.

I think you probably meant 2 Corinthians 11:2 if you're intending to tie spiritual marriage in with the end times. 1 Corinthians 7 is more a lesson of the responsibilities of sexuality between husband and wife.

2 Corinthians 11:2 "I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." Which also ties with Mark 13:7 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!"

It's not exactly uncommon to find warnings that Jesus may arrive at any time or any moment throughout the books of the New Testament.

Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I think you have the wrong fable. If I'm the metal pot then I would suggest that you are the clay pot, not a kettle. As I recall, you only gave two references:
Matthew 24:36 and Strong's. But, interestingly, you said:



Let's go over Matthew 24.
the stars will fall from the sky

Is this literal or metaphoric? I don't know of any literal way for stars to fall from the sky so I would assume that it has to be metaphor. But what is annoying is that you cherry-picked the quote from Matthew:



When you read from verse 32 the meaning becomes clear and exactly the opposite of what you've been claiming:

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The twigs and leaves reference is an obvious indicator that the time is near, not some time in the far distant future. This supports the interpretation of "this generation" as the current generation and not as a reference to Jews in general. This interpretation matches with the reference to summer because, while you might know that summer is near, you still don't know the exact hour and day that summer begins.

Further, there is no suggestion of people disappearing. Reading the entire passage:

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

It is clear that "one will be taken" is a reference to the flood and that it "took them all away". So, "taken" in this context means experiencing a tragedy, not disappearing like someone in a magic act. But even if someone was still confused by this passage, the message is repeated further down:

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that there is no mention of servants disappearing. One who is doing his duty is rewarded, and one who is not is punished. But, let's imagine that someone is still confused about the passage. Chapter 25 continues with additional examples. The parable of the brides is again about readiness:

25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.

Just like in Chapter 24, half are ready (wise) and half are not (foolish). No one disappears. The ones who are ready are rewarded while those who were not were punished. However, if you doubted that chapter 25 was a continuation, how could you miss that Matthew 25:13 repeats the line from Matthew 24:36?

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The parable after that says nothing about people disappearing. It talks about one servant who was trusted with five bags of gold and gained five more and was rewarded. The second buried the bag he was given and was punished. So, with the story of the servants, bad behavior was punished. However, with this one it is clearly stated that abstention is also punished. However, if someone doubted that this was an addition to the servant story you only have to note that 25:21 matches 24:45 and that 25:30 matches 24:51.

It is abundantly clear that a theme throughout is the idea of one good and one bad. This continues with the sheep and goat story. I mentioned the idea of selection as a reference to Passover. However, if someone really couldn't pick that reference out, it is mentioned explicitly in chapter 26:

17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’”

But let's go over this material in historic context. The first part of chapter 24 says:

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Now, it is well known that the book of Matthew was written after the book of Mark which was not written until after Jesus' death. Jesus died roughly in 36 AD. Thirty years later came the Jewish uprising. Four years after that, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. The logical assumption is that this passage was written after 70 AD and therefore was prophetic of nothing.

I now understand your "logic". I wish you would have began with your last line though. Thank you. Chris B.

 

[Craig B]

This from 1 Thess 4 proves beyond cavil that Paul thought that the Last Days would arrive in the lifetime of some then living.

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

As evidenced by Strong's Concordance too, that word was not used anywhere else in that sense, except by one translator in exactly one saying by Jesus, and even the all the major translations and the majority of commentaries disagree with him: http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-34.htm

Which you would know if you actually understood what you're talking about. Which, frankly, you don't.

Maybe you should leave the apologetics, as well as the butthurt act about atheists with agenda, to the Xians. At least some of those do it better.

Am I to assume you have a more accurate interpretation of Matthew? If so please share it. I am interested in the topic but please be aware I cannot be offended as to belief, faith or Jesus bashing. I'm really not interested in those aspects. I have no time for those with an agenda attempting to reinforce their own doubts about what they believe or not.

Apologetics? Hardly. I shared my interpretation, let's hear yours.
Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

This from 1 Thess 4 proves beyond cavil that Paul thought that the Last Days would arrive in the lifetime of some then living.

Yep, I knew this would show up eventually. That's the other favorite.
I believe Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians because he realized the first letter had been misunderstood, as far as where it concerned Jesus' second coming. In the second letter Paul gives two signs which will be present when Jesus comes. Those signs are the apostasy and the man of lawlessness. Neither of those signs were present at that time so, again we have a message relayed that nobody knows when Jesus will arrive but signs are given to watch for his coming. Kinda funny in a way, but definitely not pinning down the coming of Jesus to a particular time or even during their lifetime. Again, the message is to be watchful and expectant always. Chris B.

 

[Craig B]

Yep, I knew this would show up eventually. That's the other favorite.
I believe Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians because he realized the first letter had been misunderstood, as far as where it concerned Jesus' second coming. In the second letter Paul gives two signs which will be present when Jesus comes. Those signs are the apostasy and the man of lawlessness. Neither of those signs were present at that time so, again we have a message relayed that nobody knows when Jesus will arrive but signs are given to watch for his coming. Kinda funny in a way, but definitely not pinning down the coming of Jesus to a particular time or even during their lifetime. Again, the message is to be watchful and expectant always. Chris B.

No it isn't. What you are saying directly contradicts the message. The Thessalonians are worried that some people have already died. Will they miss out on the coming of the Kingdom of God? Paul reassures the Thessalonians. The dead will be raised and join the living, to share in the experience. But who are the living?

13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. 15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

The still living are described in the first person by Paul. He is talking to the present generation.

If he meant it could be any time, maybe tomorrow, maybe in excess of two thousand years, he would not have used such expressions.

 

[Craig B]

Yep, I knew this would show up eventually. That's the other favorite.

I believe Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians because he realized the first letter had been misunderstood, as far as where it concerned Jesus' second coming. In the second letter Paul gives two signs which will be present when Jesus comes. Those signs are the apostasy and the man of lawlessness. Neither of those signs were present at that time so, again we have a message relayed that nobody knows when Jesus will arrive but signs are given to watch for his coming. Kinda funny in a way, but definitely not pinning down the coming of Jesus to a particular time or even during their lifetime. Again, the message is to be watchful and expectant always. Chris B.

Why don't you cite what you refer to, of at least give chapter and verse? For contrary to what you tell us, there is a suggestion of imminence in this passage too. No reader could possibly assume the writer has any protracted period of millennia in mind.

2 Thess 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[Craig B]

Yep, I knew this would show up eventually. That's the other favorite.

There's more, as I will try to show.

... Kinda funny in a way, but definitely not pinning down the coming of Jesus to a particular time or even during their lifetime.

This kinda funny way of reinterpreting things to suggest they don't really mean what they appear to mean in the matter of the imminence of the parousia has a very venerable history. We read a plain statement by Jesus in Matthew.

16:28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

OK. He's told us that truly. Sounds pretty solid to me. But then decades pass, and another evangelist picks up his pen. He comes across a plain saying of Jesus. Dear me, what'll I do? I know, I'll add a bit, "explaining" why nothing's happened yet. And we end up with this.

John 21:21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?

Very ingenious.

But then even more decades pass and a later writer has got to go to even greater lengths of ingenuity to address the issue convincingly. By this time non-believers are getting really kinda cheeky about it.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” ... 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Even that doesn't suggest two millennia of things going on as they have.

But raving maniacs like the author of the insane Revelation care nothing for these subtleties, and blurt out

1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Now if God sends Angels to tell his servants something, and they tell us, well you'd kinda think they'd get it right. For that passage admits of no significant delay in the coming of the Lord.

That is wrong, and the passage of time has refuted God, his angels and his servants, just as it has refuted early Marxists who predicted the imminence of World Revolution.