Rapture - 23rd September 2015

[Norman Alexander]

Here is an "article" from the website logosapologia which may explain the claim better than I could.

If you have ever spent any time studying Daniel’s seventy-weeks prophecy you might have been somewhat annoyed by the first seven weeks.

[blah blah blah snippety-snip]

No it doesn't.

 

[Border Reiver]

I know of the passage but never paid attention to the exact words. So the text says that not even Jesus knows the day, but these chuckleheads think they know the day. WTF?

It may be that Jesus knows - him being part of the "three-in-one" divinity. I know that it's hard for me to keep secrets from myself and all.

 

[sphenisc]

The concept of a Rapture didn't exist until the 1800s. "

Evidence?

 

[Agatha]

Wiki is a good place to start looking; it's suggested that the common, pre-tribulation meaning of rapture developed from the late 18th century by Increase and Cotton Mather, and was popularised in the 1930s by John Darby. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

 

[sphenisc]

Wiki is a good place to start looking; it's suggested that the common, pre-tribulation meaning of rapture developed from the late 18th century by Increase and Cotton Mather, and was popularised in the 1930s by John Darby. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

Yeah, that's where I expected the goalposts to end up.

 

[Agatha]

It's a pretty much unheard of doctrine over here in the UK, so it is not something universal.

I beg your pardon if I offended you in some way by linking to Wiki; I'm not sure what you mean by goalposts.

 

[dejudge]

I think that's because Jesus never referred to a "rapture" in any way at all. It's the invention of modern minds.

What??? The "rapture" was fabricated at least 1800 years ago in the Pauline Corpus.

Pauline writers gave specific "details" of the rapture

1 Thessalonians 4.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In the NT, the character called Jesus claimed he would come in the CLOUDS and GATHER his ELECT.

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The so-called rapture is not a modern invention at all.

The so-called rapture with the Lord from heaven was invented at least since the 2nd-3rd century.

 

[sphenisc]

It's a pretty much unheard of doctrine over here in the UK, so it is not something universal.

I beg your pardon if I offended you in some way by linking to Wiki; I'm not sure what you mean by goalposts.

No offence taken. There's a substantial difference between barehl's claim and what wiki says. My expectation was simply that the claim would be watered down to pretty much what you posted.

 

[Rincewind]

Apparently from Matthew 24, one man and one woman will be raptured...

 

[UnrepentantRed]

Many people seem to be applying the Daniel’s seventy-weeks prophecy to this, and they have managed to bring the date to this year's Yom Kippur date, even though this specific Jewish holiday happens every year between near the end of September and the start of October. Also there is some interpretation issues as well, what reason is there to count from the 7th June 1967?

 

[tsig]

Many people seem to be applying the Daniel’s seventy-weeks prophecy to this, and they have managed to bring the date to this year's Yom Kippur date, even though this specific Jewish holiday happens every year between near the end of September and the start of October. Also there is some interpretation issues as well, what reason is there to count from the 7th June 1967?

Why would the universe run on a human calendar?

 

[Craig B]

What??? The "rapture" was fabricated at least 1800 years ago in the Pauline Corpus.

The so-called rapture with the Lord from heaven was invented at least since the 2nd-3rd century.

Balderdash. You have "fabricated" gibberish that not even the Pauline Corpus would dare to expose to the derision of the public. Because Jesus coming down and everyone on earth being judged is not "Rapture " in this sense.

the pre-tribulation view, a group of people will be left behind on earth after another group literally leaves "to meet the Lord in the air." This is now the most common use of the term, especially among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. The other, older use of the term "Rapture" is simply as a synonym for the final resurrection generally, without a belief that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This distinction is important as some types of Christianity never refer to "the Rapture" in religious education, but might use the older and more general sense of the word "rapture" in referring to what happens during the final resurrection.

This is further explained here

Denominations such as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[sphenisc]

Quote:

Denominations such as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Did you actually read that second quote? I suggest you start using it in the sense that the vast majority of Christians use it, or make it clear that you're using it in a non-standard sense.

 

[Craig B]

Did you actually read that second quote? I suggest you start using it in the sense that the vast majority of Christians use it, or make it clear that you're using it in a non-standard sense.

Can you elaborate on that please, if it's addressed to me?

I would have thought that taken together Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Reformed Christians constitute a majority.

 

[sphenisc]

Can you elaborate on that please, if it's addressed to me?

I would have thought that taken together Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Reformed Christians constitute a majority.

Then I've failed to understand your objection to dejudge's post. What do you mean by '.... is not "Rapture " in this sense.' ?

 

[dejudge]

Balderdash. You have "fabricated" gibberish that not even the Pauline Corpus would dare to expose to the derision of the public. Because Jesus coming down and everyone on earth being judged is not "Rapture " in this sense.

I have merely exposed that you don't know what you are talking about.

1 Thessalonians is a fundamental reference to the rapture

The rapture is not a modern invention at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

In Christian eschatology the rapture refers to the belief that either before, or simultaneously with, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, believers who have died will be raised and believers who are still alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected dead believers) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.[1] [2]

The concept has its basis in various interpretations of the biblical book of First Thessalonians[3]and how it relates to interpretations of various other biblical passages, such as those from Second Thessalonians, Gospel of Matthew, First Corinthians and the Book of Revelation.[3]...

http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/a/whatisrapture_2.htm

The Pauline Corpus written does contain 'details' about the so-called rapture when living and resurrecrted dead believers will MEET the LORD in the AIR to be with him forever.

1 Thessalonians

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Craig B, you appear to have very little knowledge of the writings of antiquity about the rapture.

 

[steve s]

Matthew 24:36

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

The book says nobody can know the date. So any date prediction fails, end of story.
Chris B.

But a few sentences before that he says...

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So he's saying "It'll happen before you die, but you won't know exactly when." The believers never mention that part. It would expose the fact that Jesus lied or was incredibly wrong.

Steve S

 

[Craig B]

Then I've failed to understand your objection to dejudge's post. What do you mean by '.... is not "Rapture " in this sense.' ?

My link explains this.

The exact meaning, timing and impact of the event are disputed among Christians and the term is used in at least two senses. In the pre-tribulation view, a group of people will be left behind on earth after another group literally leaves "to meet the Lord in the air." This is now the most common use of the term, especially among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. The other, older use of the term "Rapture" is simply as a synonym for the final resurrection generally

which is what dejudge is referring to

without a belief that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This distinction is important as some types of Christianity never refer to "the Rapture" in religious education, but might use the older and more general sense of the word "rapture" in referring to what happens during the final resurrection.

The "left behind" understanding is relatively modern.

 

[Ladewig]

Why would the universe run on a human calendar?

Why are you asking that in a Religion sub-forum thread?

The religious nutters believed they have cracked the code hidden in ambiguous Bible references.

 

[dejudge]

My link explains this.

What absurdity. It is the very SAME link which explains the Rapture.

You conveniently forgot to show the very first part of your link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

In Christian eschatology the rapture refers to the belief that either before, or simultaneously with, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, believers who have died will be raised and believers who are still alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected dead believers) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.[1] [2]

The concept has its basis in various interpretations of the biblical book of First Thessalonians[3]and how it relates to interpretations of various other biblical passages, such as those from Second Thessalonians, Gospel of Matthew, First Corinthians and the Book of Revelation.[3]


The exact meaning, timing and impact of the event are disputed among Christians[4] and the term is used in at least two senses. In the pre-tribulation view, a group of people will be left behind on earth after another group literally leaves "to meet the Lord in the air." This is now the most common use of the term, especially among fundamentalist Christians in the United States.[5] The other, older use of the term "Rapture" is simply as a synonym for the final resurrection generally, without a belief that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.[6][7] This distinction is important as some types of Christianity never refer to "the Rapture" in religious education, but might use the older and more general sense of the word "rapture" in referring to what happens during the final resurrection.[8]

Craig B, your claim is a well established fallacy that the Rapture is an invention of modern minds.

The teachings of the Rapture is at least 1800 years old.