Questions for pro-lifers

[TragicMonkey]

Exactly! Which is why, when you realize that abortions account for only a small fraction of the fertilized eggs being terminated, you can relax just a bit. There really is no point in being emotional about it.

Um, that doesn't really work out. It's like saying that armed robbery only accounts for a small fraction of retail losses, therefore we can relax about them.

The fertilized eggs that don't implant, well, there's not much that can be done to "save" them.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

I will never understand people who are pro life and pro death penalty.

Innocent people have been executed and unless you are willing to state that your justice system is %100 perfect at all times you must admit that more innocent people will be executed.

Its ok to kill innocent adults but not embryos?

Can we stop the whole pro life thing now and call it anti abortion everybody is pro life.

 

[Mark]

Um, that doesn't really work out. It's like saying that armed robbery only accounts for a small fraction of retail losses, therefore we can relax about them.

The fertilized eggs that don't implant, well, there's not much that can be done to "save" them.

So...there's not much that can be done for the tens of thousands of dead in Pakistan so they don't count?

I don't buy it. These anti-abortion people go on and on and on about "babies" dying, and yet care nothing---not even sadness---for the millions MORE who die through failure to implant.

My point is that they don't really think of the fetus as a "baby" any more than the pro-choice" people do. They just say that to get a reaction.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Now there is a solid majority. Two thirds want to reduce the number of abortions. There is your target. Some people are trying way too hard to polarize this issue. Why not work towards common ground? Reduce the number of abortions. Most people are not opposed to birth control. Even most of the people opposed to abortion. Read the whole link and see for yourselves.

Emotionalism just pushes people in the wrong direction. Away from common ground.

I have to admit I'm shocked about the two-thirds figure. I mean, how did they phrase the question about reducing the number of abortions? Surely even pro-choice people ought to want to reduce the number of abortions by improving the success rate (and use rate) of birth control? I mean, it's an expensive medical procedure, that might be safe these days but certainly would be better off preventing the necessity for it. Besides which, if someone is getting pregnant without wanting to be, they are also evidently being exposed to STDs. Condoms, people! They prevent more than one unwanted consequence.

Who was it who said abortion should be safe, legal, and rare? Count me in with that camp.

 

[Cain]

Well, I think abortion is cool. I'm sure everyone here has seen FIGHT CLUB (slightly over-rated film, in my opinion).

Anyway, in the original scene Marla turns to Tyler Durden, after what we can only assume was a marathon night of sweaty sex, and lovingly says "I want to have your abortion." Now that's romantic! Studio executives forced Fincher to drop it. He got permission to replace it with whatever he wanted (since nothing could be worse than "I want to have your abortion.") Of course the replacement line had her looking up at the ceiling, declaring "I haven't been ****ed like that since grade school." Studio executives apparently begged Fincher to go back to the original script.

 

[Luke T.]

Innocent people have been executed

The only innocent people I know of who have been executed were the victims of lynch mobs, and not of the justice system. I have never seen evidence of an innocent person executed within the justice system.

 

[TragicMonkey]

So...there's not much that can be done for the tens of thousands of dead in Pakistan so they don't count?

I don't buy it. These anti-abortion people go on and on and on about "babies" dying, and yet care nothing---not even sadness---for the millions MORE who die through failure to implant.

My point is that they don't really think of the fetus as a "baby" any more than the pro-choice" people do. They just say that to get a reaction.

Hmm. I guess that, at least tacitly, they are willing to entertain the notion that some stages of human development are on a different plane of value than others. But quite possibly they do mourn the unimplanted embryos, but think there's nothing that can be done. Apart from abstinence-only education, of course.

More likely, the majority simply doesn't know about the phenomenon. I don't mean to knock just the pro-life crowd; I find that a surprising number of people remain ignorant of basic knowledge of the human body and its operation.

 

[Mark]

Hmm. I guess that, at least tacitly, they are willing to entertain the notion that some stages of human development are on a different plane of value than others.

Exactly!!!!!!

My point is that for all their hoopla about "Life begins at conception" they don't really believe that, and they certainly do not act as if they did.

This is all about control, and that has little or nothing to do with "life."

 

[Mark]

The only innocent people I know of who have been executed were the victims of lynch mobs, and not of the justice system. I have never seen evidence of an innocent person executed within the justice system.

Here, however, we will explore some of what we believe to be at least a few dozen instances when prisoners who most likely were innocent nevertheless were executed. (Not all the prisoners with the strongest claims of innocence are mentioned in this article.) In many of these cases, evidence of innocence was available to judges or governors who could have prevented the execution.

Among cases mentioned in previous issues of J is David Wayne Spence, executed by the state of Texas on April 3, 1997 despite the conclusion of the police lieutenant who supervised the case that "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." The homicide detective on the case added, "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." One of the inmates who testified in Spence's trial, Robert Snelson, said, "We all fabricated our accounts of Spence confessing in order to try to get a break from the state on our cases."

http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

 

[TragicMonkey]

The only innocent people I know of who have been executed were the victims of lynch mobs, and not of the justice system. I have never seen evidence of an innocent person executed within the justice system.

Isn't the possibility of error enough to make the death penalty too risky?

 

[Fengirl]

I do get extremely emotional about every abortion. All of them.

Actually…me too, Luke. It makes me sad and angry. I think it makes people on all sides of the debate feel that way. It’s an awful subject, and I have yet to meet a pro-choice person who believes abortion is anything better than a necessary evil.

The problem is, I think the anger (and perhaps the sense of impotence at being unable to change certain aspects of our society) often gets misdirected at the women concerned, which makes me ever sadder and angrier. I guess my perspective is influenced by the fact that (as an ex-nurse) I’ve seen enough to know that there is no particular “type” of woman who finds herself needing an abortion. I’ve never seen anyone go through it who didn’t grieve over it, and who wasn’t profoundly affected by that choice.

When I see women who choose abortion demonized as irresponsible, immoral, uncaring, shallow, sluttish…I can’t help but picture those girls and those women I nursed…of all ages, all social backgrounds, married, unmarried… with their fears and their tears all over their faces. And I can’t find it in my heart to condemn them as “murderers”. And to see others do so upsets me profoundly.

Those on the pro-life side strive hard (rightly or wrongly) to put a “human face” on the fetus - to see it as a human being, worthy of our care and respect. What grieves me most is when they strive so hard to do so that they fail to afford the same degree of humanity and compassion to women seeking abortion.

And I think you are absolutely right that these debates tend to push the pro-choice and the pro-life sides further apart...when in fact, both sides would like to see the same thing - the need for abortion reduced or eliminated.

 

[Luke T.]

Isn't the possibility of error enough to make the death penalty too risky?

I fully supported the Governor of Illinois' decision to place a moratorium on executions when DNA evidence showed some people on death row were innocent.

I am actually undecided on the death penalty. On some days I am in favor of it, on others I am opposed to it, but most days I just don't know.

If the idea of the death penalty was to serve as a deterrent, then we would need to start executing a hell of a lot more people and more quickly. But that would be incredibly reckless. It might have helped tame the Wild West and all, but it is not really viable today.

If it is to be a punishment, then I think we need to proceed with caution. Someone provided an example last week of a killer who videotaped himself torturing and killing his victims. I'd say that was a slam dunk, no way this guy is innocent, kind of case where I would be okay with strapping him into the electric chair.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Which is why I'm hoping that one day the whole debate will become completely unnecessary, because we'll have 100% effective birth control that everyone knows how to use and does; or even to go sci-fi we'll develop technological means to remove, without harming, and raise any undesired embryo from any stage of development to a normal healthy life without the mother needing to give birth or be involved any more than she wants to be. Teleporter babies, maybe?

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

The only innocent people I know of who have been executed were the victims of lynch mobs, and not of the justice system. I have never seen evidence of an innocent person executed within the justice system.

So you think the system is perfect even in Texas? You think its just chance that blacks get the death penalty more than whites? You dont think stupid and prejudiced juries exist?

 

[Mark]

If it is to be a punishment, then I think we need to proceed with caution. Someone provided an example last week of a killer who videotaped himself torturing and killing his victims. I'd say that was a slam dunk, no way this guy is innocent, kind of case where I would be okay with strapping him into the electric chair.

Me, too, believe it or not.

But not as a deterrent. Most murders are crimes of passion, which deterrence won't affect. The ones that aren't are largely committed by people who aren't really afraid of death in the first place. And psychotics, who also won't be stopped by deterrence.

No, the reason I would be OK with your example is simply to make sure the mutant never, ever does such a thing again.

 

[Luke T.]

So you think the system is perfect even in Texas? You think its just chance that blacks get the death penalty more than whites? You dont think stupid and prejudiced juries exist?

And all of this means I am supposed to assume an innocent person has been executed?

Now if you mean the odds are that an innocent person has been exectued, I can live with that. Your odds may vary from mine, though.

Sure, prejudice and stupidity abound. But just because more blacks get the death penalty doesn't mean they are innocent. It could just as well mean that guilty white people get lesser sentences.

 

[Mark]

And all of this means I am supposed to assume an innocent person has been executed?

Now if you mean the odds are that an innocent person has been exectued, I can live with that. Your odds may vary from mine, though.

Sure, prejudice and stupidity abound. But just because more blacks get the death penalty doesn't mean they are innocent. It could just as well mean that guilty white people get lesser sentences.

I posted a link with examples of innocents who have been executed. Ignoring the fact doesn't make it go away, Luke.

http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

And all of this means I am supposed to assume an innocent person has been executed?

Now if you mean the odds are that an innocent person has been exectued, I can live with that. Your odds may vary from mine, though.

Sure, prejudice and stupidity abound. But just because more blacks get the death penalty doesn't mean they are innocent. It could just as well mean that guilty white people get lesser sentences.

Dead men dont tell tales.

For some living victims check out wm3.org and tell me Echoles is guilty with a straight face. Keep in mind that the bogus confession was not even used in his trial so they didnt have any evidence, not even the manufactured stuff.

 

[casebro]

I don't know whether I am pro-life or pro-choice. I do think there are a couple of inconsistancies I'd like cleared up:

If I cause a traffic accident, and a woman has a miscarriage, that makes me a murderer. Even if she was on the way to the abortion clinic. Seems to me, the line ought to be drawn at "viable outside the uterus". Before that time, its a minor medical procedure, like getting a tooth filled. After that, murder.

And, Why should the woman have the sole decision making authority? Up til then, both man and woman shared the activity, but now it is her decision whether the dad will have to support their mutual offspring? Shouldn't there be a "Legal Male Abortion" ? A para-legal instead of a Doctor, for the males? A binding legal equivalent, wherein a male is relieved of anything to do with the baby? I'm not saying he should force the woman to have an abortion, only that she should have the sole responsibility inherent in her sole choice of birthing the child.

I think this is another very emotional subject. I know of 3 male friends involved with 3 different sides of abortions. They each have very emotional points of view. I've not been involved, so I remain philosophical about the issue. I wonder what kind of personal exposure the vocal few have had?

 

[Luke T.]

I posted a link with examples of innocents who have been executed. Ignoring the fact doesn't make it go away, Luke.

http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

I did read your link. And it plainly says "most likely were innocent".

As I said to Anti-Hypeman, if you want to talk odds, fine. If you want to speak in certainties and absolutes with no evidence, you should probably go elsewhere.