Questions for pro-lifers

[Luke T.]

And, Why should the woman have the sole decision making authority? Up til then, both man and woman shared the activity, but now it is her decision whether the dad will have to support their mutual offspring? Shouldn't there be a "Legal Male Abortion" ? A para-legal instead of a Doctor, for the males? A binding legal equivalent, wherein a male is relieved of anything to do with the baby? I'm not saying he should force the woman to have an abortion, only that she should have the sole responsibility inherent in her sole choice of birthing the child.

Conversely, I think the father should have a right to prevent an abortion. When a woman consents to have sex with a man, she is consenting to him using her body, right? What if she understood by law that she is also consenting to his right to save his child if she gets pregnant?

 

[Cleopatra]

I do get extremely emotional about every abortion. All of them. The whole subject angers me second only to pedophilia.

Why is that, if I may ask? Although I don't compare anything with pedophilia I feel the same. I give myself a good reason though. I wish I had kids but I don't. I think that I would be a really devoted mother but if I ever wish to adopt I will have to prove to the court that I am a millionaire, happily married and have half of the city testify on my behalf. Pretty painfull procedure. My point is that maybe personal bitterness is involved in my case.

I wonder why you feel that way. My question is not rhetoric.

 

[Mark]

I did read your link. And it plainly says "most likely were innocent".

As I said to Anti-Hypeman, if you want to talk odds, fine. If you want to speak in certainties and absolutes with no evidence, you should probably go elsewhere.

Excuse me, Luke, but you are the one who said, "The only innocent people I know of who have been executed were the victims of lynch mobs, and not of the justice system. I have never seen evidence of an innocent person executed within the justice system."

I just supplied you with that evidence, and it is pretty overwhelming.

But, since you are now denying even the possibility of certainties, I trust you have now dropped your support of the death penalty.

 

[casebro]

Conversely, I think the father should have a right to prevent an abortion. When a woman consents to have sex with a man, she is consenting to him using her body, right? What if she understood by law that she is also consenting to his right to save his child if she gets pregnant?

Brings up the questionable legalities of artificial insemination/ host mothers / two mommies? Maybe we need to consider current laws "default contracts", to be superceded by specific contracts? Like pre-nups being legal for financial arrangements, perhaps fertility contracts should also be legal. They aren't now, in California.

Maybe it's time for some kind of "Fertility Rights and Restrictions" law? Contraception required, except with fertility contract and licence?

 

[Fengirl]

Conversely, I think the father should have a right to prevent an abortion. When a woman consents to have sex with a man, she is consenting to him using her body, right? What if she understood by law that she is also consenting to his right to save his child if she gets pregnant?

WHAAAAAT?

Is that really, truthfully, honestly what you think sex is about?
A man USING a woman's body?
And her consenting to being USED?

Oh. My. Goodness.

I was tempted (earlier) to retract my comment about misogyny.
SO glad I didn't. BTW - my sincere condolences to your wife.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Is that really, truthfully, honestly what you think sex is about?
A man USING a woman's body?
And her consenting to being USED?

I think part of the problem in the abortion debate is that the biological reality is that one sex has to go through more than the other. Since the genders are supposed to be equal in law and society, it does seem rather unfair that this be so. There's not much that can be done about it, either, unless we get some startling medical advances made.

Which is another reason I'm pro-choice. I dislike the idea of abortion intensely, but given the biological fact that it's the women who have to deal with pregnancy, I'm quite willing to concede that the choice should belong to the woman in each case. Which might be upsetting for the man, if he wishes to have the child and the woman doesn't, but she does have the superior authority in the matter. If he cared that much, he should have used contraception. If we ever develop a way to take the fetus out of the woman and implant it in the man, then perhaps it will make things level.

 

[Luke T.]

But, since you are now denying even the possibility of certainties, I trust you have now dropped your support of the death penalty.

Again, you are demonstrating a lack of reading comprehension. Allow me to repeat myself:

I am actually undecided on the death penalty. On some days I am in favor of it, on others I am opposed to it, but most days I just don't know.

 

[Luke T.]

Why is that, if I may ask? Although I don't compare anything with pedophilia I feel the same. I give myself a good reason though. I wish I had kids but I don't. I think that I would be a really devoted mother but if I ever wish to adopt I will have to prove to the court that I am a millionaire, happily married and have half of the city testify on my behalf. Pretty painfull procedure. My point is that maybe personal bitterness is involved in my case.

I wonder why you feel that way. My question is not rhetoric.

I think a fetus is a human being. Just as you might get angry over a two year old being killed, I get upset over a fetus being killed.

In the U.S., you don't have to be a millionaire to adopt. I don't think you even have to be married. But the waiting list is years long. It is a long legal process. The last guy I talked to had been going through the process for over two years and counting.

 

[Luke T.]

WHAAAAAT?

Is that really, truthfully, honestly what you think sex is about?
A man USING a woman's body?
And her consenting to being USED?

Oh. My. Goodness.

I was tempted (earlier) to retract my comment about misogyny.
SO glad I didn't. BTW - my sincere condolences to your wife.

The pro-abortion movement has negated the existence of the fetus as a human being by claiming this is an issue over a woman's use of her own body. I am simply using their own rhetoric to describe the sex act. The woman is deciding how her body is being used. Simply negating other considerations in the same way.

 

[Mark]

I think a fetus is a human being. Just as you might get angry over a two year old being killed, I get upset over a fetus being killed.

But if millions of them die from natural causes you couldn't care less?

Seems a tad inconsistent.

 

[Cleon]

The pro-abortion movement

By the very use of that phrase, you have demonstrated:

1. You have no intention of looking at this issue rationally, ever.
2. You have nothing in the way of rational arguments to offer.

 

[Luke T.]

I think part of the problem in the abortion debate is that the biological reality is that one sex has to go through more than the other. Since the genders are supposed to be equal in law and society, it does seem rather unfair that this be so. There's not much that can be done about it, either, unless we get some startling medical advances made.

Which is another reason I'm pro-choice. I dislike the idea of abortion intensely, but given the biological fact that it's the women who have to deal with pregnancy, I'm quite willing to concede that the choice should belong to the woman in each case. Which might be upsetting for the man, if he wishes to have the child and the woman doesn't, but she does have the superior authority in the matter. If he cared that much, he should have used contraception. If we ever develop a way to take the fetus out of the woman and implant it in the man, then perhaps it will make things level.

There's nothing that says the man didn't use contraception. Remember that 17 percent.

And the man who does not want the child aborted and agrees to raise it is making a much, much bigger committment in agreeing to raise the child than the woman would be to birthing it.

 

[Luke T.]

By the very use of that phrase, you have demonstrated:

1. You have no intention of looking at this issue rationally, ever.
2. You have nothing in the way of rational arguments to offer.

I guess you didn't read the first link I posted in this topic, or my posts about birth control, or the common ground, or just about anything I've said, or you wouldn't make such a foolish statement.

 

[Cleon]

I guess you didn't read the first link I posted in this topic, or my posts about birth control, or the common ground, or just about anything I've said, or you wouldn't make such a foolish statement.

On the contrary, I have. And I still stand by it. Use of the term "pro-abortion movement" indicates a sheer lack of ability or willingness to look at the issue rationally.

 

[Luke T.]

On the contrary, I have. And I still stand by it. Use of the term "pro-abortion movement" indicates a sheer lack of ability or willingness to look at the issue rationally.

Not true. It is possible to feel very strongly about something and yet overcome those passions to find the truth. That is what critical thinking is all about.

If you read this topic, you will see that I had a rather powerful preconceived notion that I was forced to let go of after very careful, and yes rational, analysis.

When I started that topic, I was on a zealous mission to prove something. I was so sure I would find the evidence to support it. And I discovered, on my own, that what I wanted to be true, wasn't. And I acknowledged it, and came to a whole different attitude about the abortion issue.

Look at the erroneous belief I started out with:

And since we know abortions were only legal for mother's health, rape, incest or fetal defect, then there couldn't have been that many illegal abortions. Way less than the current 1 million-plus today. In fact, less than 82,933.

Thinking out loud on the next page:

Something isn't right here.

Farther down:

We should be taking the proper skeptical approach. This is one of the most emotional topics out there and therefore demands the most objective examination. I am doing my best to put aside my own personal feelings. Please try to do the same.

Then Electric Monk presented a case which obliterated my argument, and I conceded:

I would say it meant repealing Roe did not reduce the number of abortions noticeably.

I then concluded:

Nor do I no longer think the number of abortions would drop dramatically.

Don't know how you can conclude I have "a sheer lack of ability or willingness to look at the issue rationally". You seem to be a little irrational yourself in choosing to be miffed over a term I used and ignoring evidence that I actually can think rationally on this emotional subject despite my prejudices.

 

[Fengirl]

I think a fetus is a human being. Just as you might get angry over a two year old being killed, I get upset over a fetus being killed.

Can you explain why? What criteria are you using to equate a 2-yr old child with a fetus? In what ways are they alike?

 

[toddjh]

On the contrary, I have. And I still stand by it. Use of the term "pro-abortion movement" indicates a sheer lack of ability or willingness to look at the issue rationally.

I think that's going just a little bit far. People adopt rhetoric all the time without intending it literally. Indeed, the abortion debate is one of the biggest sources of propaganda in the U.S. today, on both sides.

That said, it would be nice if Luke conceded that there is no such thing in reality as a "pro-abortion movement," except perhaps for the Bush administration's idiotic hamstringing of federal support for sex ed programs.

Jeremy

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

And the man who does not want the child aborted and agrees to raise it is making a much, much bigger committment in agreeing to raise the child than the woman would be to birthing it.

Proof? Evidence?

Only if you are talking probabilities. The birth could cause life long problems for the mother or even kill her. Maybe the man wants the baby so he can sell it on the black market or eat it? You are talking probabilities if you want to talk facts let me know.

 

[DavidJames]

Don't know how you can conclude I have "a sheer lack of ability or willingness to look at the issue rationally".

I agree, you are willing to look at issues rationally.

You seem to be a little irrational yourself in choosing to be miffed over a term I used...

The term "pro-abortion" suggests, to me, that you believe people who favor choice, are in fact, in favor of women having abortions, is that what you believe?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Only if you are talking probabilities. The birth could cause life long problems for the mother or even kill her. Maybe the man wants the baby so he can sell it on the black market or eat it? You are talking probabilities if you want to talk facts let me know.

But surely every situation is different, because it's dealing with a different woman and a different man? In one case, the right decision might be to have the baby and let the father raise it. Or it might be the right decision to give the baby to the grandparents, or have it adopted, or even not to have the baby at all. Yeah, those are all big decisions. Giant, life-altering decisions. Which is why they should be made by the people involved, and not by the government, not even a democratic government where the majority agrees with one way of handling it.