MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
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Rolfe: Thanks for the clarification. I (again, probably) made the mistake of trying to simplify things to give Kumar an explanation he might have a chance to understand. Of course, I should have known that he has no wish to understand.
Anyhow, his case is still lost, since as we both remarked, all this depends on the insulin cycle actually working, which it doesn't in diabetes
. Not that this will stop him, of course.
Hans
Anyhow, his case is still lost, since as we both remarked, all this depends on the insulin cycle actually working, which it doesn't in diabetes
. Not that this will stop him, of course.Hans
Rolfe, thanks for participation.
One thing we should remember:-
"Weight gain = insulin resistance/Type2 diabetic -- too much insulin causes weight gain.
Weight loss = insulin deficency/Type1 diabetic -- too little insulin causes weight loss because the body is starved and begins to eat the stored fat as fuel and the blood becomes acidic."
Are fat cells different from target cells taking glucose?
It was indicated to me that there can be insulin resistance for glucose converting to fats at later stage of persistant excess fats, when a patient can still loose weight inspite of excess/sufficient insulin.
One thing we should remember:-
"Weight gain = insulin resistance/Type2 diabetic -- too much insulin causes weight gain.
Weight loss = insulin deficency/Type1 diabetic -- too little insulin causes weight loss because the body is starved and begins to eat the stored fat as fuel and the blood becomes acidic."
Are fat cells different from target cells taking glucose?
"Fat tissue is made up of fat cells. Fat cells are a unique type of cell. You can think of a fat cell as a tiny plastic bag that holds a drop of fat"
Figure 2. How a fat cell stores fat, and converts glucose and amino acids into fat.
It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules. The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it. If you have 100 extra calories in fat (about 11 grams) floating in your bloodstream, fat cells can store it using only 2.5 calories of energy. On the other hand, if you have 100 extra calories in glucose (about 25 grams) floating in your bloodstream, it takes 23 calories of energy to convert the glucose into fat and then store it.
http://home.howstuffworks.com/fat-cell.htm
It was indicated to me that there can be insulin resistance for glucose converting to fats at later stage of persistant excess fats, when a patient can still loose weight inspite of excess/sufficient insulin.
MRC_Hans said:Rolfe: Thanks for the clarification. I (again, probably) made the mistake of trying to simplify things to give Kumar an explanation he might have a chance to understand. Of course, I should have known that he has no wish to understand.
Anyhow, his case is still lost, since as we both remarked, all this depends on the insulin cycle actually working, which it doesn't in diabetes
Hans
It is ok, we are not GOD/Absolute.
Rolfe said:
By balancing the required level of insulin in syste, exactly or atleast not making it in excess.
Eating less, fasting, exercises, loose weight, Impairing medicated glucose absorption/synthesis..all these can be related to the changes into the levels of insulin in blood.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Kumar, repeat after me. If you have too much insulin, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT HYPOGLYCAEMIC ATTACKS.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
Rolfe said:
In consideration of IR, it may not always happen. I am not sure, but sometimes it indicates to me, it may sometimes do opposite in some cases.
Body tries its best to save us. Under this, it may try best to avoid hypoglycaemic condition induced by hyperinsulinemia or otherwise. Don't get confused, differenciate between shocking/acute effect & adapted/addicted chronic effect.
"Weight gain = insulin resistance/Type2 diabetic -- too much insulin causes weight gain.
Weight loss = insulin deficency/Type1 diabetic -- too little insulin causes weight loss because the body is starved and begins to eat the stored fat as fuel and the blood becomes acidic."
It can be very important to understand type of disease in any disease--real or apparent, positive or negative , exceess or deficiency or imbalance, constitutional or chronic or acute, acid or base or water/mucus based, towards direction of cure or persistance or spread...etc.
Under this consideration & these discussions, can you assess/think & tell;
What does Diabetes type2 & IR, where weight gain or no weight loss has happened, indicates? How, promoting/adding more insulin in this type of patients look like?
What weight gain, weight stay constant & weight loose in patients indicate in case of most of chronic/modern diseases--Tb, diabetes, hypertention, cancer etc.?
Weight loss = insulin deficency/Type1 diabetic -- too little insulin causes weight loss because the body is starved and begins to eat the stored fat as fuel and the blood becomes acidic."
It can be very important to understand type of disease in any disease--real or apparent, positive or negative , exceess or deficiency or imbalance, constitutional or chronic or acute, acid or base or water/mucus based, towards direction of cure or persistance or spread...etc.
Under this consideration & these discussions, can you assess/think & tell;
What does Diabetes type2 & IR, where weight gain or no weight loss has happened, indicates? How, promoting/adding more insulin in this type of patients look like?
What weight gain, weight stay constant & weight loose in patients indicate in case of most of chronic/modern diseases--Tb, diabetes, hypertention, cancer etc.?
Mojo
Mostly harmless
No, you've still got this backwards. Insulin resistance causes the body to be less able to use glucose, as the insulin is no longer as able to make the cells take up insulin and metabolise it. If anything, it is more that the weight gain causes the diabetes than the other way around (although this is something of an oversimplification). In many cases, losing weight by eating a better diet and getting more exercise is an effective treatment regime for type 2 diabetes.Kumar said:
Mojo said:
But hyperinsulinemia, natural or induced, may convert excess glucose into fats, increase weight & complicate conditions related to increased fats. What signals body controlling mechnisms will get when target cells are not able to take the glucose? Will it not the alike deficiency of glucose/energy--so may trigger maximum energy storage as fats on one hand & use of fat energy on other hand?
Now my big questions are;
When excess glucose can be converted into fats & insulin aid to it, how much it is correct to induce hyperinsulinemia condition? Can we avoid hyperinsulinemia condition in case of IR?
It looks you know nothing but pose for everything.
Anyway, How Triglycerides levels are elevated in many diabetes patients?
??
It can be a dynamic thought, whether obesity causes diabetes2 & IR or diabetes2 & IR causes obesity or it is a viscious circle?
Anyway, How Triglycerides levels are elevated in many diabetes patients?
??
It can be a dynamic thought, whether obesity causes diabetes2 & IR or diabetes2 & IR causes obesity or it is a viscious circle?
Mojo
Mostly harmless
If you read a bit further down the page you've quoted, you will find the statementKumar said:
Nothing is said here about how this arises, or whether it is a cause or effect of the diabetes, or an associated condition. If two conditions occur together, it does not necessarily mean that one caused the other. there could be other factors resulting in both conditions.
The conditions are certainly associated. The fact that there is such a close association, and that type 2 diabetes can often be controlled by reducing the weight, suggests that either obesity or other factors that lead to obesity (such as diet and lack of exercise) has some sort of causitive effect, at least in some cases.
Mojo said:
Umm...the last sentence, in particular.
You see, my mother is battling type 2 diabetes. She has been put on a strict diet/exercise regiment. It has worked, I am happy to report. She's lost 65 lbs, is healthier than ever, and is controlling the diabetes through diet and exercise, without having to take drugs. She IS under a qualified physician's care, by which I mean a certified MD. She IS monitoring the situation. And yes, her being overweight was cited by the doctor as a major factor in her having diabetes.
As far as I know, she has rejected all forms of 'holistic healing' as snake oil. A very sensible woman, and probably where I get what sense I've got from..
clarsct said:Umm...the last sentence, in particular.
You see, my mother is battling type 2 diabetes. She has been put on a strict diet/exercise regiment. It has worked, I am happy to report. She's lost 65 lbs, is healthier than ever, and is controlling the diabetes through diet and exercise, without having to take drugs. She IS under a qualified physician's care, by which I mean a certified MD. She IS monitoring the situation. And yes, her being overweight was cited by the doctor as a major factor in her having diabetes.
As far as I know, she has rejected all forms of 'holistic healing' as snake oil. A very sensible woman, and probably where I get what sense I've got from..
Will diet/exercise & weight loss not reduce insulin & requirement of insulin? Do your case indicate that diet/exercise & weight loss are really needed for treatment and mecications are unnecessary? Baba Ramadev in India, who has attracted more that 250 million people including doctors, ministers, well educated people (skeptics, I don't know), also tells most of the diseases can be treated/cured by other alternative means than modern medications.
Mojo said:
Mojo, I think both these are related to each other. Just check this:-
Genetic predispositin to diabees>>occasional/irregular gastric acid & insulin secretion>occasional/irregular/excess hunger & eating habits>> more insulin secretion>>IR>>pre-diabetes/increased TG & elevated BG levels>> Diabetes2/NIDDM/IR>>More induced/medicated insulin>>hyperinsulinemia>>progressive diabetes & hyperinsulinemia related problems>>pancreas stop secreting insulin>>Insulin level reduced as only injected remains>>IDDM>>Some control in BG/TG as insulin work with no IR, but can't be perfectly/naturally controlled...so on.
What does it indicate? Whether high BG or high insulin is more instantly toxic & which one body system will try to resist first?
What do you mean by alternative than modern medications? Treating type 2 diabetes by diet and exercise is modern medicine. As to the claim that "most of the diseases" can be cured that way, is complete rubbish. But some diseases can, of course.Kumar said:
*nod*steenkh said:
*looks back over his post*
Yep...mentioned a Medical Doctor's supervision...
So yes, modern medicine is responsible for my mother's abatement of symptoms. I never implied otherwise. Somehow this got twisted in Kumar-land. One day I'll learn.....
*sigh*
Mojo
Mostly harmless
As Steenkh has already said, using diet and exercise to treat type 2 diabetes is modern medicine. Note also that I said that type 2 diabetes can often be controlled by diet and exercise. In many cases this doesn't work adequately and other options need to be used.Kumar said:
I hope you're not going to start up with your "survival of the fittest" claptrap again.
steenkh said:
What is medicine in treating type 2 diabetes by diet and exercise? What is modern in this? All/most systems advice on diet and exercise?
Yes, but it is becoming next wonder as people are getting unexpected cures just by some breating excecises, yogas, diet control, ayurvedic medicines & above all--by encouraging faith/belief/positive thoughts just by his words. Moreover it is almost free/cheaply available. All these were since ancient times, but Baba Ramdev is most successful?
Mojo,
As above. Nothing is SOF in this. Pls tell me about possibilities of CV problems due to hyperinsulinemoa & other questions.