Questions about Insulin?

[Kumar]

In any case, the high levels of blood sugar in diabetes is caused by the body's cells being unable to utilise glucose and convert it into forms in which it can be stored, such as glycogen or fat.

We should assess what can happen on this conversion of glucose in which it can be stored as fats. If fats/lipids will be more due to this conversion, will it not resuly into CV diseases as indicated in previous links. We should think deeply, how we can avoid excess insulin or this conversion?

 

[Jocce]

We should think deeply, how we can avoid excess insulin or this conversion?

You are above stupid kumar. Avoid the conversion into fat? OMG....

 

[Kumar]

You are above stupid kumar. Avoid the conversion into fat? OMG....

Many such thought may, in future, result into biggest stupidity. People may not be now entitled to understand simplest logics.

 

[MRC_Hans]

We should assess what can happen on this conversion of glucose in which it can be stored as fats. If fats/lipids will be more due to this conversion, will it not resuly into CV diseases as indicated in previous links. We should think deeply, how we can avoid excess insulin or this conversion?

Kumar, I could dissect your idea in detail, but this really suffices: The human body does not and cannot convert glucose into fat.

Have you not heard of carbohydrate diets? The idea behind them is that as the body cannot convert carbohydrates (including glucose) into fat and that indeed the body's capability for storing energy as carbohydrates is very limited, then if you adopt a virtually fat-free diet, you can eat as much as you like of it and still loose body fat. The bad news for these diets is that, unless you are a hard-core vegetarian, it is very difficult to get the fat content of your diet sufficiently low.

So, apart from being logically inconsistent (the trouble with IR is that you don't metabolize glucose, as shown by the resultant high BG), your idea is impossible.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Kumar, I could dissect your idea in detail, but this really suffices: The human body does not and cannot convert glucose into fat.

Have you not heard of carbohydrate diets? The idea behind them is that as the body cannot convert carbohydrates (including glucose) into fat and that indeed the body's capability for storing energy as carbohydrates is very limited, then if you adopt a virtually fat-free diet, you can eat as much as you like of it and still loose body fat. The bad news for these diets is that, unless you are a hard-core vegetarian, it is very difficult to get the fat content of your diet sufficiently low.

So, apart from being logically inconsistent (the trouble with IR is that you don't metabolize glucose, as shown by the resultant high BG), your idea is impossible.

Hans

This can be a big miss. Pls re-check if insulin can aid to convert unused BG into fats, even protiens or not?

 

[MRC_Hans]

This can be a big miss. Pls re-check if insulin can aid to convert unused BG into fats, even protiens or not?

It is an absolute fact that it can not. And the problem in IR is that BG is NOT metabolized.

Kumar, you were wrong. Take it as a man and move on.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

It is an absolute fact that it can not. And the problem in IR is that BG is NOT metabolized.

Kumar, you were wrong. Take it as a man and move on.

Hans

The FED State
When we are healthy and eating regular meals our body uses what it needs for energy immediately, then stores energy for later use. Stored energy comes from conversion of glucose into Glycogen and Triglycerides. Glycogen stores are in the Liver and Muscle. Glycogen can supply up to 1900 kcal. That will only last about 16 hours in an adult. Fats are stored in Adipose tissue. Depending on how much Adipose tissue we have, it can supply up 130,000 kcal. Glycogen stores and Fat stores increase with age. Proteins are also stored to be later broken down into their Amino acids, which can be converted into glucose if needed.
http://www.fodsupport.org/blood_sugar_monitoring.htm

http://www.whitworth.edu/Academic/D...hletics/Classes/KIN326W_Hagerott/engyhorm.htm1)

glycogenesis - glucose from the blood plasma is moved into the liver for storage as glycogen. The hormone which governs this is insulin.

2) protein manufacture - amino acids absorbed from the blood are transaminated and made into proteins.

3) Fat synthesis from glucose and transport into the fat reserves of the body. Insulin enhances this as well. [/quote]

http://webanatomy.net/anatomy/nutrition_notes.htm

 

[MRC_Hans]

Kumar, you cannot cherry-pick bits from a text and put them back together to suit your purpose. You need to actually UNDERSTAND the text.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Principles:

Insulin acts to reduce glucose concentrations in the blood and therefore stimulates the conversion of glucose to fats, proteins, ribulose 5 phosphate and glycogeninhibits the conversion of fats, proteins, ribulose 5 phosphate and glycogen to glucose

http://www.np.edu.sg/~dept-bio/biochemistry/aab/topics/fats/insulin.htm

Let me see how others will tell about it.

Gulucose utilizarion by target cells & its stores are two different aspects/mechanisms.

 

[Kumar]

As previously mentioned, obesity occurs in up to 40% of the Australian population. Obesity is strongly correlated with insulin resistance, although not all obese patients have insulin resistance, nor does insulin resistance always result in obesity. Insulin resistance results in obesity predominantly via insulin’s anabolic effects on fat metabolism. It increases the production of acetyl-CoA and thus lipogenesis in adipocytes, increases glucose uptake into adipocytes, which becomes glycerophosphate and is then synthesised into triglycerides, and inhibits lipoprotein lipase and adenyl cyclase in the catabolism of fats. In addition, insulin resistance is postulated to result in a decrease in feeding-related, insulin-mediated thermogenesis, resulting in increased efficiency of weight gain22.

Increased cardiovascular disease results from the combination of obesity, hypertension, vascular smooth muscle proliferation and dyslipidaemia. Raised plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 (PAI-1) with resultant reduced fibrinolysis induced by hyperinsulinism23, further increases the risk of cardiovascular disease. Insulin resistance also reduces DHEA levels. As DHEA is antiatherogenic by virtue of its inhibition of fibroblasts and acts as a hypolipidaemic24, this is a further contribution to cardiovascular risks.
Link.

Mr. Hans,

I think anove quote will clear it.

 

[steenkh]

Kumar, just out of curiosity, why are you so interested in insulin? I suppose that if you yourself is suffering from diabetes, you will simply go to your local homoeopath and get a sugar pill to cure you, rather than discussing it here with people with vested interests, hmm?

Please do not take my question as an incentive to quit proper medical advice on diabetes, because I am aware that if I meant that, I could be accused of manslaughter if you actually did it.

 

[MRC_Hans]

These are quite different mechanisms, Kumar. As I say you can't just grab a small part of such an extremely complex thing as human metabolism and fly off with it. I tried to do you a favor and explain things in simple terms, which naturally entails some simplifications.

If you want to know about human metabolism, fine! But expect to study for several years.

And, start with page 1.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

These are quite different mechanisms, Kumar. As I say you can't just grab a small part of such an extremely complex thing as human metabolism and fly off with it. I tried to do you a favor and explain things in simple terms, which naturally entails some simplifications.

If you want to know about human metabolism, fine! But expect to study for several years.

And, start with page 1.

Hans

It is ok. I had long discussions on this at sciforum previously, where knowlegeble person replied. Glucose conversion to fats as store of energy is very common aspect, otherwise how imbalances in lipidis, obesity can occur in type2 & IR cases.

 

[Kumar]

Kumar, just out of curiosity, why are you so interested in insulin? I suppose that if you yourself is suffering from diabetes, you will simply go to your local homoeopath and get a sugar pill to cure you, rather than discussing it here with people with vested interests, hmm?

Yes, now you can understand me well as a person for Crudes+Potencies. Moreover, insulin & knowledge of body mechanisms are not the property of any one system--insulin is a replacement not medicine.

 

[steenkh]

Yes, now you can understand me well as a person for Crudes+Potencies. Moreover, insulin & knowledge of body mechanisms are not the property of any one system--insulin is a replacement not medicine.

But surely, diabetes is an illness that is caused by a lack of vital force in the body, and as you know, according to Hahnemann, it is wrong to try to understand the problem. A homoeopath should just prescribe according to the symptoms?

 

[Kumar]

But surely, diabetes is an illness that is caused by a lack of vital force in the body, and as you know, according to Hahnemann, it is wrong to try to understand the problem. A homoeopath should just prescribe according to the symptoms?

Genetic pre-dispositions---Vital force--our inherited unabilities--lack of immunity etc., Dr.Hahn.-- man of allopathic studies(crudes)+ man of homeopathy(potencies)---to be considered.

All homeopathic pursuers & theories are/were greately influenced by crudes+potencies c+p. Whether this is/was a progress, process, purification etc. of crudes or not, can be assessed/thought/considered?

 

[Rolfe]

Kumar, I could dissect your idea in detail, but this really suffices: The human body does not and cannot convert glucose into fat.

Have you not heard of carbohydrate diets? The idea behind them is that as the body cannot convert carbohydrates (including glucose) into fat and that indeed the body's capability for storing energy as carbohydrates is very limited, then if you adopt a virtually fat-free diet, you can eat as much as you like of it and still loose body fat. The bad news for these diets is that, unless you are a hard-core vegetarian, it is very difficult to get the fat content of your diet sufficiently low.

So, apart from being logically inconsistent (the trouble with IR is that you don't metabolize glucose, as shown by the resultant high BG), your idea is impossible.

Hans

Sorry to take so long to come back on this. I was trying to find a neat summary of the biochemical reactions, but I didn't find anything short enough.

Sorry, Hans, you're not right on this one. The metabolic pathways of all those things are quite interlinked, and excess energy can and will be stored as fat no matter where it comes from in the first place. (Oh, would that it were not - but it is!)

The key compound here is (as bloody usual) acetyl co-enzyme A (anybody know why it's called that?). This is connected into glycolysis via puruvate. Pyruvate is one of the compounds glucose is metabolised to in the glycolytic pathway. Pyruvate is then converted to acetyl co-enzyme A, where it enters the citric acid cycle - this is the usual way to follow the pathway if you're considering catabolism. But acetyl co-enzyme A is also the starting point for fat synthesis. When the energy balance is positive and excess energy intake is required to be stored, the excess acetyl co-enzyme A is irreversibly converted to malonyl co-enzyme A, which is the committed step into fatty acid synthesis.

It then goes on, with the molecules and the words getting longer, but in effect the outcome is fatty acids, then triglycerides, and basically there you are. Fat. Like the Michelin Man.

Obviously this doesn't happen if there is no insulin. The reactions are intracellular, so unless the glucose enters the cell (dependent of insulin), it won't go anywhere. But if it does enter the cell, one of the places it can go is "straight to your hips".

Unfortunately.

Rolfe.

 

[steenkh]

Genetic pre-dispositions---Vital force--our inherited unabilities--lack of immunity etc., Dr.Hahn.-- man of allopathic studies(crudes)+ man of homeopathy(potencies)---to be considered.

All homeopathic pursuers & theories are/were greately influenced by crudes+potencies c+p. Whether this is/was a progress, process, purification etc. of crudes or not, can be assessed/thought/considered?

I will give you the benefit of doubt and believe it was a brilliant answer because I do not understand a word of it!

Or do you generally slip into the Black Speech when there is something you do not want to consider too much?

 

[Ashles]

Or do you generally slip into the Black Speech when there is something you do not want to consider too much?

Yup.

It's the internet equivalent of mumbling so someone can't quite discern your answer.

Kumar can certainly be clearer when he wants to - but he so often doesn't, but wants to play like he actually understands the debate and by posting gibberish he can pretend to be involved in it.

Quick rule of thumb -
The more Kumar wants to provide an unclear answer, the more slashes you will see seperating different verb tenses or word synonyms for no reason, eg:

All homeopathic pursuers & theories are/were greately influenced by crudes+potencies c+p. Whether this is/was a progress, process, purification etc. of crudes or not, can be assessed/thought/considered?

It doesn't add anything to the meaning of the sentence but it does add a delightful amount of confusion.

I call this tactic the Kumar Syntax Mumble, but am open to other, punchier names.

 

[Rolfe]

I thought I'd trace the glucose -> fat thing back, because it's almost a sure thing that Kumar is wrong anyway.

We should assess what can happen on this conversion of glucose in which it can be stored as fats. If fats/lipids will be more due to this conversion, will it not resuly into CV diseases as indicated in previous links. We should think deeply, how we can avoid excess insulin or this conversion?

Kumar was in fact responding to an entirely correct point made by Mojo:

In any case, the high levels of blood sugar in diabetes is caused by the body's cells being unable to utilise glucose and convert it into forms in which it can be stored, such as glycogen or fat.

Kumar, as usual, seems to have managed to take this entirely the wrong way.

If you don't have enough insulin, or your cells aren't responding to insulin (IR), then glucose can't get into the cells and so can't be utilised - either for immediate energy release, via glycolysis and the citric acid cycle, or stored by direct incorporation into glycogen, or by metabolism as far as acetyl CoA (the start of the citric acid cycle) then diverted to fat synthesis.

So you will lose weight. Uncontrolled diabetic patients lose weight. This is unhealthy.

Conversely, if you have enough insulin, and your cells respond to it, then glucose will enter the cells and the metabolic pathways. It may go all the way through for immediate energy, if required, or if there is excess, it will be stored as glycogen or fat.

You can therefore blame the insulin for making you fat if you like. And indeed there is a smidgin of truth to that - patients who really do have too much insulin (due to a tumour of the islet cells called insulinoma), do get fat. It's the only form of cancer in which getting fat (rather than thin) is part of the presenting picture.

On the other hand, unless you have an insulinoma, or are a diabetic who is injecting too much insulin (in which case you will know all about it because you will be suffering from life-threatening hypoglycaemic attacks), you can't really blame the insulin for doing what it's supposed to do, making the glucose you have voluntarily consumed available to the metabolic enzymes.

Now, how could we possibly ensure that too much glucose isn't converted to fat? Gosh, that's a hard one. I don't know, really. Hey, here's a radical suggestion, might work, at a pinch - HOW ABOUT YOU EAT LESS????

Rolfe.