Proof of Immortality, VI

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I have bad news for Jabba. If we ever live in a brave new world where people can create new copies of dead individuals by copying DNA, the people in charge of such a process will be scientists, materialists, dare I say skeptics and critical thinkers.

His application to be re-animated via DNA replication will move to the bottom of the pile and most likely to the "circular file," if google survives that long.


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ETA; I am here ignoring the fact that a DNA copy would not be enough, since I assume Jabba means the, putative, complete copy process.
Based on his body of work, I don't think this is a reasonable assumption.

Wherever there is a discrepancy in Jabba's argument, be it ambiguity or contradiction, the safest assumption is probably that Jabba means whatever he thinks best counters the rejoinder of the moment.


This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
(1071)... According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would*look*like me, but it wouldn't actually*be*me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that*that*"self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place.


False. The materialist model does not accept that any individual "self" exists. The sense of self is an ever-changing process of a working brain. Are you the same person you were 40 years ago? I'm not. The self has changed, there is only the illusion of continuity.
 
(1071)... According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would*look*like me, but it wouldn't actually*be*me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that*that*"self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place.

Who put you in charge of defining the materialist model?
 
Isn't it hilarious that we are reduced to arguing a hypothetical as yet impossible scenario, and somehow this relates to Proof of immortality.

That is the modus operandi of people who cannot prove their point: Keep the discussion going about something else. You have to give that to Jabba: He manages that quite well.

Hans
 
Agatha and Dave,
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.
2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.
3. Both H (OOFLam) and ~H refer to that kind of self.
4. H claims that reincarnationists are wrong; ~H claims that they might be right.
5. We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.
6. In that case, in that respect, the new self would be different than the original self.
7. That would be a big, important, difference.




believe that all of us experiencewhat do that because it didn't seemin order to nail down the self to which I'm alluding in H (OOFLam)
 
Agatha and Dave,
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.
2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.
3. Both H (OOFLam) and ~H refer to that kind of self.
4. H claims that reincarnationists are wrong; ~H claims that they might be right.
5. We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.
6. In that case, in that respect, the new self would be different than the original self.
7. That would be a big, important, difference.




believe that all of us experiencewhat do that because it didn't seemin order to nail down the self to which I'm alluding in H (OOFLam)
1. False, many of us have acknowledged exactly that sense of self
2. True, we all experience a sense of self. Not sure about re-incarnationist. Who gives a **** what they thing.
3. umm sure whatever
4. sure
5. What the **** does "bought back to life mean?" Does the original person have to be dead to be cloned?
6. This has been explained to you literally dozens of times. Why not read the responses instead of preaching.
7. see 6. When asked to specify this difference you fail. You don't fail because words are inadequate. You fail because you are trying to necessitate reincarnation into your explanation.

Here is another question for you to ignore. What is the difference between this magic self you are trying to define into existence, and my description of the observer I gave before?
 
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1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.
2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.


I, for one, have no idea. I've asked you over and over to define this self. What exactly does it carry from life to life? If I'm allergic to peanuts, will my reincarnated self be allergic as well? What about love? 20 years ago, I loved one girl. Today, I don't love her. I love another woman and my children? So which version of my "self" survives?

Even those who believe in reincarnation don't agree on any of this.

If you're intent on using the word, define it.
 
Agatha and Dave,
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.
2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.
3. Both H (OOFLam) and ~H refer to that kind of self.
4. H claims that reincarnationists are wrong; ~H claims that they might be right.
5. We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.
6. In that case, in that respect, the new self would be different than the original self.
7. That would be a big, important, difference.




believe that all of us experiencewhat do that because it didn't seemin order to nail down the self to which I'm alluding in H (OOFLam)

Why are you repeating yourself? Are you caught in some sort of Groundhog Day loop?

You've already said all that. You're wrong. You have no idea what you're arguing. Move on.
 
Agatha and Dave,
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.

And you think we do now?

2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.

You assume wrong.
 
Jabba,

None of this is advancing your point at all. How about a shift in focus?

Let B = the existence of your body. Not your sense of self, just your full and complete body with all working parts. Ok, then what are your estimates for P(B|H) and P(B|~H)?
 
Jabba, you still haven't explained how it's a difference. Just because there would be two selves doesn't mean they would be different. If nobody can tell them apart they aren't different.
 
5. We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.

Why wouldn't it? The "sense of self" you appear to be referring to seems to me no more than continuity of memory. If you replicate the brain entirely, including all its memories, then this would seem to me no different than bringing a 'self' back to life. And, as everyone has been trying to tell you for a few years, if you replicated a brain to this level of detail, neither 'self' would know which was the original.

So, no, we don't all accept that.

Dave
 
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life.

Why would you do that? Is it something you believe in?

In the case of Hindus, they believe you come back as different animals, depending on your previous lives, but with no memory. Where is the sense of self there? How do you tell it's the same 'self'?
 
Why would you do that? Is it something you believe in?

In the case of Hindus, they believe you come back as different animals, depending on your previous lives, but with no memory. Where is the sense of self there? How do you tell it's the same 'self'?


QFT
 
Would I be brought back to life?

Jabba, I've asked you several times to avoid this sort of meaningless twaddle. Please don't be so rude as keep pulling the discussion back to your vague generalities. Listen to your critics, who are carefully explaining how the materialist model handles concepts of life and self-awareness.

You think that we would reproduce the particular self, or that aspect of self, to which reincarnationists refer?!

The soul, Jabba. What you seem to be pinning on the "reincarnationists" (whoever those might be) is simply your concept of the soul. No such thing exists in materialism. No concept of "a particular self" exists in materialism. It is not an individualized thing; self-awareness is a property. "That aspect of the self" is clearly trying to be the soul again. How many hundreds of times must we tell you that no such thing exists in the model you're trying to refute?

But then, OOFLam refers to, and I've been referring to, the kind of self to which reincarnationists refer...

No. Materialism does not in any way include the concept of a reincarnatable soul.

So, you don't know what reincarnationists think comes back to life.

Just more equivocation. You're clearly talking about a soul, but you are also dishonestly trying to hide the question you know you're begging. You say "the self" because you don't want to use the word soul. Now you're just saying "whatever the reincarnationists believe in" (without defining either them or that) so that you can have a new phrase that means soul without actually coming out and saying soul.

- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?

No, now you're just playing word games to try -- once again -- to sneak the soul concept in as part of E, the data. No, materialism does not accept in any way the soul that is reincarnated from body to body. Not even a little bit. Now you're equivocating "experiencing the sense of self" as your method of trying to make your soul part of E. Not gonna happen, Jabba. How many times have people called you on this blatant deception? Will it ever sink in that your critics are not blind or idiots?

But not back to life? That's the difference.

No, you're just circularly defining "back to life" as whatever you claim is the operative difference you can't define in concrete terms.


I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.

You can't define what you mean by self. Which is to say, it really is a soul and you've admitted as such. But you keep using different confusing and vague terms to hopefully fool people into thinking you're not begging the question of a soul.

I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.

You're conflating the subjective experience of self-awareness with potential causes for that self-awareness. You're trying to sneak the concept of a soul into E as data rather than as part of a hypothesis to explain the data. You're using the "whatever experience the reincarnationists have" as your bridge for doing that. We already identified as a fatal flaw in your argument your amateurish inability to understand what the parts of a statistical inference are and what role they play.

Both H (OOFLam) and ~H refer to that kind of self.

No.

H claims that reincarnationists are wrong; ~H claims that they might be right.

No. H is materialism. ~H is the set of everything that isn't materialism, which may include theories that involve reincarnation. This is the false dilemma we have repeatedly identified as a fatal flaw in your argument, which you steadfastly refuse to address.

We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.

Despite your desperate efforts to put words in your critics' mouths, we do not agree any such thing. "That kind of self" and "bring back to life" are not clearly defined, and have no apparent paragon in materialism. Please do not simply paste vague requirements onto the problem solely for the purpose of claiming materialism can't explain them. Straw man.

...it didn't seemin order to nail down the self to which I'm alluding in H (OOFLam)

You don't get to nail down that self. You don't own it. It is not yours to mess with and redefine from day to day as you get stuck in the debate.

Self-awareness under H is an emergent property of a functioning brain. It is not particularized or individualized in any way that is distinguishable or enumerable. Stop trying to redefine your way out of this dilemma. You lost this debate years ago, and you know it. A concise summary of that loss appears here, where you've explicitly known about it for weeks. Your conscious and deliberate desire not to engage them tells the whole world you know your argument is refuted.
 
Agatha and Dave,
1. I've been referring to the kind of self, or aspect of self, that reincarnationists think comes back to life. I started doing that because hardly anyone here was sure what I meant by "self," otherwise.
We all know you mean a soul, Jabba. You just keep trying to use different words to hide the fact that you are looking at a process, and calling it an entity.
2. I assume that all of us experience that kind of self, and do know to what experience that reincarnationists refer.
You assume wrong. We all experience the process of consciousness. But I don't think you have ever set out what you think "reincarnationists" believe, or why anyone should believe them. Since there are as many ideas about reincarnation as there are people who believe in such a thing, I think it is a mistake to assume we know what you or anyone else believes about it.
3. Both H (OOFLam) and ~H refer to that kind of self.
No, no, no, no. You can't take the soul and shove it into materialism. It doesn't exist in H, it doesn't exist in OOFLam, it doesn't exist in materialism. It only exists in ~H.
4. H claims that reincarnationists are wrong; ~H claims that they might be right.
That is true, but only if you don't try to sneak a ~H concept into H, which is what you are doing.
5. We all accept that that kind of self would not be brought back to life by replicating a person's brain.
Most of us don't accept that there is a soul, or the type of self that reincarnationists appear to believe in. Under materialism, replicating the brain results in an identical process, leading to an identical-but-separate self. If you think otherwise, you really haven't read the replies.
6. In that case, in that respect, the new self would be different than the original self.
No, under H, replicating the brain leads to two identical-but-separate selves.
7. That would be a big, important, difference.
No. Not under H. Not under your original OOFLam which was materialism.

You are trying to put the "reincarnationists" concept of self, which is firmly in ~H, into H or OOFLam. You can't do that.
 
Jabba, I've asked you several times to avoid this sort of meaningless twaddle. Please don't be so rude as keep pulling the discussion back to your vague generalities. Listen to your critics, who are carefully explaining how the materialist model handles concepts of life and self-awareness.



The soul, Jabba. What you seem to be pinning on the "reincarnationists" (whoever those might be) is simply your concept of the soul. No such thing exists in materialism. No concept of "a particular self" exists in materialism. It is not an individualized thing; self-awareness is a property. "That aspect of the self" is clearly trying to be the soul again. How many hundreds of times must we tell you that no such thing exists in the model you're trying to refute?



No. Materialism does not in any way include the concept of a reincarnatable soul.



Just more equivocation. You're clearly talking about a soul, but you are also dishonestly trying to hide the question you know you're begging. You say "the self" because you don't want to use the word soul. Now you're just saying "whatever the reincarnationists believe in" (without defining either them or that) so that you can have a new phrase that means soul without actually coming out and saying soul.



No, now you're just playing word games to try -- once again -- to sneak the soul concept in as part of E, the data. No, materialism does not accept in any way the soul that is reincarnated from body to body. Not even a little bit. Now you're equivocating "experiencing the sense of self" as your method of trying to make your soul part of E. Not gonna happen, Jabba. How many times have people called you on this blatant deception? Will it ever sink in that your critics are not blind or idiots?



No, you're just circularly defining "back to life" as whatever you claim is the operative difference you can't define in concrete terms.




You can't define what you mean by self. Which is to say, it really is a soul and you've admitted as such. But you keep using different confusing and vague terms to hopefully fool people into thinking you're not begging the question of a soul.



You're conflating the subjective experience of self-awareness with potential causes for that self-awareness. You're trying to sneak the concept of a soul into E as data rather than as part of a hypothesis to explain the data. You're using the "whatever experience the reincarnationists have" as your bridge for doing that. We already identified as a fatal flaw in your argument your amateurish inability to understand what the parts of a statistical inference are and what role they play.



No.



No. H is materialism. ~H is the set of everything that isn't materialism, which may include theories that involve reincarnation. This is the false dilemma we have repeatedly identified as a fatal flaw in your argument, which you steadfastly refuse to address.



Despite your desperate efforts to put words in your critics' mouths, we do not agree any such thing. "That kind of self" and "bring back to life" are not clearly defined, and have no apparent paragon in materialism. Please do not simply paste vague requirements onto the problem solely for the purpose of claiming materialism can't explain them. Straw man.



You don't get to nail down that self. You don't own it. It is not yours to mess with and redefine from day to day as you get stuck in the debate.

Self-awareness under H is an emergent property of a functioning brain. It is not particularized or individualized in any way that is distinguishable or enumerable. Stop trying to redefine your way out of this dilemma. You lost this debate years ago, and you know it. A concise summary of that loss appears here, where you've explicitly known about it for weeks. Your conscious and deliberate desire not to engage them tells the whole world you know your argument is refuted.


His continued attempt to insert immaterial souls into materialism makes it pretty clear that he fully understands that it is the souls, not materialism, that enables him to insert his infinite denominator, which means that the only thing his argument 'disproves' is the existence of souls.
 
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