Proof of Immortality, VI

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...he fully understands that it is the souls, not materialism, that enables him to insert his infinite denominator...

Fully understands and has all but said so. The infinite-denominator that is ostensibly based on a very abstraction philosophical notion of discrete "potentiality" is really based on souls. Infinite numbers of potential people, but not an infinite number of potential Volkswagens -- because souls.

...which means that the only thing his argument 'disproves' is the existence of souls.

Carried beyond the realm of souls, his argument disproves the existence of everything. This is why we keep talking about Volkswagens. If you stop him begging the question, everything vanishes in a puff of logic.
 
Can I just take this opportunity to reiterate how much I despise the "materialism/dualism" distinction, the terms themselves, and the whole navel gazing nonsense that comes with them?

Why do you let Woo Slingers frame the argument in such a to make it sound like "Reality" and "Making Stuff Up" are just two equally valid ways of looking at the situation?
 
Jabba, you still haven't explained how it's a difference. Just because there would be two selves doesn't mean they would be different. If nobody can tell them apart they aren't different.
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?
 
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?

Put it another way.

A perfect copy of you is made. You have to be unconscious while the copy is being done.

When you wake up, how do you know you are still you, and not the copy?

That's the sense we mean when they say you're the same. You'd only know you were the "me" self if you had access to that information, and the only difference it demonstrates is that one of the "yous" had a continuous timeline.
 
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?

Ah, you've discovered separate but identical! The well-educated and neutral parties understand this.
 
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?

No.

Two separate things are not necessarily different.
 
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The new self would not be ME.

Under materialism it would be just as much "you" as any other. Do not keep following your typical evasive pattern of inventing "me-ness" or some other vague "-ness" just to escape the precise language your critics are using.

I would not be brought back to life.

Meaningless twaddle. "Bring back to life" is a vague expression that evades precise construction.

If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?

Under materialism there is no difference that matters. Do not simply try to define "me" as the soul, as part of E, such that you can argue that materialism does not explain it. Everyone can see what you're trying to do. We've been through this same line of reasoning countless times before. You have no actual theory, Jabba. No actual proof. You promised us mathematics and you're giving us nothing but handwaved vagaries and frantically begged questions.

Here is a list of precisely specified problems with your argument. You know it exists. You know they are fatal to your claim. You are deliberately avoiding dealing with it, probably because you know you can't. Do you have the courage to show the world otherwise?
 
Ah, you've discovered separate but identical! The well-educated and neutral parties understand this.

If, in fact, we even need to go that far.

The property of self-awareness is one part of the discussion. It is one of myriad phenomena associated with an operating brain. Mine would not differ from that of a perfect copy of me. But here's a radical concept: mine doesn't differ from yours either. If we consider self-awareness as a property of an operating mind, and the essence of what separates a human from, say, a rock, then that mere property is not individualized. I'm self-aware. You're self-aware. Jabba is self-aware. But these aren't individualized or particular any more than "going 60 mph" is individualized for each car on the freeway, or any different among the different makes of car. A Volkswagen is going 60 mph and the Toyota in the next lane is also going 60 mph. The nature of "going 60 mph," as any other such property, isn't any different depending on where, when, or by whom it's manifest. There isn't any room in the concept of "going 60 mph" for individualization, nor need for any. Nor, I propose, is there in "is self-aware."

Now what we propose to duplicate by duplicating the organism is accumulated memory from the life up to that point. Being self-aware includes access to memories stored in the physical organism of the brain. And if Jabba's going to invoke reincarnation, then the sine qua non of that belief is the persistence of belief from one incarnation to the next. Incarnation aside, materialism has quite a ready explanation for how memories are stored in the brain and it's purely material. Sensory experiences, narratives, and emotional responses all have their easily-identified roots in the physicality of the brain. That is what would need to be hypothetically reproduced to arrive at an organism that is not only self-aware (because it has any old functioning brain) but would also, along with that self-awareness, also have access to all that the previous organism was up to the point of separation.

But note that the individualization is still in the organism, not in some trumped-up pseudo-philosophy. Jabba is trying to bundle up the portions of some particular life experience that are individualized (i.e., an individual's memories of life up to that point) and include them with this ineffable soul. In materialism all that can be individualized is firmly seated in the organism, not "me" or "the self" or any of the other lofty language he's borrowing from real philosophers.
 
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?


If one Volkswagen Jetta is sitting in one spot on the lot and another, identical one is sitting next to it, aren't they different?

Imagine they got in an argument as to which was the "true" Volkswagen Jetta. How would they resolve that argument?
 
- Does anyone here agree with me that the new self resulting from a perfect copy would be different than the original self?
 
Does anyone here agree with me that the new self resulting from a perfect copy would be different than the original self?

Stop it, Jabba. Stop this constant groveling for agreement, this constant effort to drive wedges between your critics for inconsequential differences in wording. Your critics are, by and large, speaking with one unison voice in vehement disagreement with your attempts to trump up the notion of a soul, include it in the data, and make materialism responsible to explain it. Address the disagreement and the reasons given for it.

Last week you complained that you were being unfairly dealt with by your critics in light of the supposedly limited amount of time you could devote to this discussion. Do not blame your critics for that while at the same time rudely subjecting them to these sorts of desperate polls and shameful attempts at rhetorical wordplay, which do nothing but waste your precious time and theirs, and ignoring what your critics are actually saying to you. Just stop it, Jabba.
 
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- Does anyone here agree with me that the new self resulting from a perfect copy would be different than the original self?


No, under materialism if you were to make a perfect copy then the "self" as you mean it would be identical.
 
The very suggestion is an oxymoron. It's not even possible to define a "perfect copy" as being different.

Do you agree that a perfect copy would be identical to the original?

It's the same tap-dance Jabba always does when we get to this point in his merry-go-round of a debate cycle. Jabba is hoping to trip up at least one of his critics by equivocating among "identical," "same," "different," "separate," and so forth. "Would be different from the original" can be read either as "can be numerically distinct from the original in that it is another entity" or "can be qualitatively distinguished from the original by its varying traits" He's hoping someone will agree to the former meaning so that he can turn it around and make it sound like agreement with the latter meaning. It's just as dishonest this time around as it was the first several dozen times he tried it.

Godless dave in particular has expended enormous patience in trying to convey to Jabba that creating a duplicate necessarily creates a numerically distinct entity. He has endured quite a lot of Jabba's frantic pleadings to the effect that "this would not be me," owing simply to the numerical duality of the result. And godless dave has patiently and carefully outlined that this does not create any operative difference between the entities as materialism considers the term. There is no priority that matters, or ineffable nugget of being that lacks in the copy. To this Jabba simply burps forth one of his standard vagaries: "It wouldn't bring me back to life," or similar.
 
Dave,
- The new self would not be ME. I would not be brought back to life. If one self is me, and one self is not me, aren't they different?

They are both identical. How are they not "you"?

Sure, their senses of "self" are distinct, but they are still identical at the moment of the copy. So what?
 
- Does anyone here agree with me that the new self resulting from a perfect copy would be different than the original self?

Nobody agrees with you because it's a logical contradiction to call a perfect copy "different". What you mean is "distinct" in that it is another object. So what?
 
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