Proof of God

Miss Anthrope said:
No! Really?



Well then, if that's your position, it's pretty silly that you argue against those folks.

This is a skeptical forum. Beliefs are held up to scrutiny here:mgduh
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Yes, calling a belief silly is certainly holding it up to scrutiny.
 
Azure said:
Thought so.
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Sorry, but if a person believes the world is flat in this day and age, it's silly. If a person believes in unicorns, it's silly. Sames goes for psychics, UFO's, Bigfoot, Nessie, and invisible dieties. Just because some consider religious faith "sacred", does not mean that some aren't going to just call it like they see it: S I L L Y.

I spent many years in many branches of the Christian church, trying to believe with all my heart. My epiphany?

"This bible is silly."

Hey, there's a cargo cult in Vanuato that thinks Prince Philip is god.

Guess what?

SILLY. (Though less silly than most god beliefs, because, well, his being real can be proven)
 
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The Bible is an amazing piece of work from a literature standpoint...so no, it is not silly.

What it means might be silly to you. But calling it silly is not exactly holding it up to scrutiny.
 
Complexity said:
Well, Azure, I am going to go away.

I'm going to make some dinner, watch some TV, and do some research.

I'll be back later tonight to check in on things.

Then I'm going to bed and read for a while. Then I'll sleep.

Tomorrow morning, I plan to wake up and come back.

Do you have any objections?

It is hard to look away from train wrecks of this magnitude.
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I find it weird that you find Dustin threatening. He's still searching for his place. The young convert protesteth too much, and you, a skeptic, worry about him?

That one is a work in progress. You, old man (just a couple of years on me) have seen them come and go, as have I.

This is not the droid/threat you are looking for. ;)

DR
 
Azure said:
The Bible is an amazing piece of work from a literature standpoint...so no, it is not silly.
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Amazing in what sense?

In terms of historical impact, yes.

In terms of plot? Character? Hardly.

In terms of the elegance of the prose? Some translations certainly qualify, such as the KJV.

In terms of telling a coherent story, much less a true one? It's ludicrous.

What it means might be silly to you.
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It's not what it means that's silly, it's what it says.

The basic point is, as skeptics we give no weight to how deeply you hold a belief. That you file your particular superstition under the category of "religion" makes no difference at all. We have no respect for beliefs held without evidence.

We can respect people who hold beliefs without evidence, but that respect is despite those beliefs.
 
Darth Rotor said:
I find it weird that you find Dustin threatening. He's still searching for his place.
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I don't think anyone finds Dustin threatening. I think Dustin has already decided his place is amongst the faithful.

What's interesting here is that Dustin thinks he has absolute, irrefutable evidence/proof of his god. However, he won't bother to take any proper steps to get this proof validated within the scientific process. Instead, he attacks the methodology of science itself.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I don't think anyone finds Dustin threatening. I think Dustin has already decided his place is amongst the faithful.

What's interesting here is that Dustin thinks he has absolute, irrefutable evidence/proof of his god. However, he won't bother to take any proper steps to get this proof validated within the scientific process. Instead, he attacks the methodology of science itself.
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Complexity states that "Dustin must be stopped." I think that shows that Complexity finds Dustin threatening, but I may be inferring too much from Complexity's posts on that theme. Not interested in getting into a semantic wrangle over this.

What Dustin mostly does is what he has done since his rant against college: make a fool of himself.

Knowledge is good, but it isn't always ingested and digested in healthy ways.

DR
 
My dearest Azure,

Several years ago, I had the patience to tear into silly beliefs in detail, taking them seriously enough to analyze them, point out their flaws and errors, and try to persuade people holding these silly beliefs that these beliefs were unworthy of them.

As I have gotten older and, I hope, somewhat wiser, I've lost much of the patience needed to analyze this tripe and I rarely try to persuade people who are in this particular trap.

Frankly, I've got better things to do.

There are many younger, more energetic, and more informed skeptics who are happy, or at least ready, to do detailed battle with ignorance.

I'm in awe of how several participants of this forum come back again and again to keep ignorance from advancing even though they may not be able to force it back. My thanks and gratitude are with them.

As a curmudgeon-in-training, I'm learning that, while I can be disagreeable in general, I must pick my battles. I have developed a simple method: if something makes me sigh, I'll backhand it and growl a bit; if it really pisses me off, I'll bite its throat, tear out its heart, and shake it for good measure; if it outrages me, I'll do my best to obliterate it.

Someone becoming religious doesn't even rate a sigh. I've been religious - was for over ten years running - probably me at my most woo, and I was full of doubt nearly all of the time. While some of my religious friends and family have hurt me deeply, most of them are a joy to know. I have some idea of how hard life is for some, and religion can be quite a solace and support, even though I believe it to be hollow.

I wish that people weren't religious. I also wish that people did not suffer, that people were stronger, that people were kinder.

I do my best to seek out and shed my own superstitions and generally leave people to attend to their own.

I started reading Dustin-related threads several days ago. I sighed. I shook my head in disbelief. As usual, stuff like Dustin was spouting annoys and saddens me but I figure someone will jump into the fray and attempt to straighten him out (at least for the benefit of the children).

It became apparent that Dustin was obtuse, willfully ignorant, or disingenuous. Many people pointed out errors that he was making - he just plowed ahead.

I can walk away from this stuff, and was ready to, when he made his statements regarding government and religion, calling for state financing of evangelical Christian churches and for a fundamentalist Christian theocracy. That really angered me. Dustin changed from someone that made me a bit sad to someone embracing my enemies.

So, my little morsel of chocolate-dipped cactus, you may not like what I do or why I do it, but you were born to disappointment.

I'll do my best to fight the good fight in spite of your disdain.

Toodles!
 
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Darth Rotor said:
Complexity states that "Dustin must be stopped." I think that shows that Complexity finds Dustin threatening, but I may be inferring too much from Complexity's posts on that theme.
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I'm thinking you are. One doesn't need to feel threatened to form the opinion that someone should STFU.

What Dustin mostly does is what he has done since his rant against college: make a fool of himself.
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Agreed. The problem is, he doesn't know that he is. He's like the one guy in the group of 1000 that thinks everyone else is an a-hole, even though the other 999 all get along with each other quite well.
 
PixyMisa said:
Amazing in what sense?
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Here...a close friend of mine is a Bible scholar...he said this..

As a large collection of a variety of mythologies, "historical" narratives and allegories, poetic liturgies, prophetic tomes and dirges, apocalyptic utterances, and sapiential instruction, the Bible is really a fascinating read. There is no end to the complexities in literary constructions, poetic and narrative devices employed, typologies, and adaptations which really make the whole Book quite remarkable on a literary critical level. The evolution of the stories and legends through the history of their development, and the way the Jews read an rewrote and adapted their history to their present context was a magnificent accomplishment; well worth the effort to research.
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The basic point is, as skeptics we give no weight to how deeply you hold a belief. That you file your particular superstition under the category of "religion" makes no difference at all. We have no respect for beliefs held without evidence.

We can respect people who hold beliefs without evidence, but that respect is despite those beliefs.
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Oh cool.

I guess calling something silly IS holding it up to scrutiny.

I don't know...but that seems a bit insulting to all those people who are actually 'trying' to argue with Dustin, point by point....as hard as it is.
 
Complexity said:
Frankly, I've got better things to do.
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Like calling Dustin and his belief silly. ;)

Seriously though...thank you for clarifying.

Its much easier to understand a position when someone 'explains' it...rather than just calling it silly.
 
Azure said:
Like calling Dustin and his belief silly. ;)

Seriously though...thank you for clarifying.

Its much easier to understand a position when someone 'explains' it...rather than just calling it silly.
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I may be mistaken, but it appears that there is a lull in our hostilities that could be extended into a truce if I shut up and go to bed.

I'm going to shut up and go to bed.

Sweet dreams.
 
Azure said:
Here...a close friend of mine is a Bible scholar...he said this..

Quote:
As a large collection of a variety of mythologies, "historical" narratives and allegories, poetic liturgies, prophetic tomes and dirges, apocalyptic utterances, and sapiential instruction, the Bible is really a fascinating read. There is no end to the complexities in literary constructions, poetic and narrative devices employed, typologies, and adaptations which really make the whole Book quite remarkable on a literary critical level. The evolution of the stories and legends through the history of their development, and the way the Jews read an rewrote and adapted their history to their present context was a magnificent accomplishment; well worth the effort to research.

We can respect people who hold beliefs without evidence, but that respect is despite those beliefs.
Oh cool.

I guess calling something silly IS holding it up to scrutiny.

I don't know...but that seems a bit insulting to all those people who are actually 'trying' to argue with Dustin, point by point....as hard as it is.
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Do you similarly find the Vedas, Torah, Koran, writings of Confucius, etc., etc., as interesting, "a magnificent accomplishment; well worth the effort to research"?

Cheers,
TGHO
 
Azure said:
Here...a close friend of mine is a Bible scholar...he said this..





Oh cool.

I guess calling something silly IS holding it up to scrutiny.

I don't know...but that seems a bit insulting to all those people who are actually 'trying' to argue with Dustin, point by point....as hard as it is.
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Hmm, does anyone smell that? Is it burnt toast? Oh, no, I know what it is. It's an appeal to authority.
 
The Great Hairy One said:
Do you similarly find the Vedas, Torah, Koran, writings of Confucius, etc., etc., as interesting, "a magnificent accomplishment; well worth the effort to research"?

Cheers,
TGHO
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Absolutely.

Writings like that fascinate me. I only recently started on the Koran...very interesting thus far.
 
Azure said:
Here...a close friend of mine is a Bible scholar...he said this.
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Well, yeah. He's a Bible scholar. That's his field of interest.

If you are interested in the thoughts of the people of that time and place, particularly their religious thoughts (and certainly this is a worthwhile field of study), the Bible is a wonderful resource.

The thing is, that's anthropology, not literature.
 
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