Proof of God

[CapelDodger]

But the moment someone steps forward claiming that they can PROVE an article of their faith to be TRUE - they've got a very hard uphill battle ...

It's like invading the Moon without oxygen. The verb equivalent of oxymoron. Faith is something felt and unexamined, logic has no purchase on it.

 

[Complexity]

Azure - Not sure what your problem is, and I really don't care.

Dustin's beliefs are infectious and dangerous.

He needs to be frustrated and, if possible, stopped.

This is why many of us are here, in addition to company and friendship - to point at superstitious beliefs, explain why they are unfounded, explain why they are impediments to human happiness and progress, and to stomp them out when we can.

We need neither your blessing nor your permission.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Gidday All,

Well, the thread has moved on a bit since my last post of last night. Interesting reading. I generally agree with the majority that there is no issue with someone being religious, as long as they realise that their faith is an emotional response to stimuli, and can not be supported with logic or empirical evidence.

Speaking of evidence, Dustin, you're yet to provide any. You've provided a lot of words, and some interesting mind games, but I'm a scientist. I deal with the real world, not the world of philosophy and semantic tricks. If you want to convince me you've proved something, you need to show me some actual, empirical evidence. Not just some typing on a forum.

D'rok, Pixy, LossLeader, Andyandy, Complexity, Z and others have already poked very large holes in your philosophical arguments. I'll freely admit that most of the philosophical stuff just bamboozles me. I'm not a philosopher. However word games, whilst linguistically impressive, prove nothing and contain no actual evidence. As D'rok most excellently pointed out, with logic one can "prove" that red = blue, regardless of what real-world evidence shows.

Dustin, I hope you enjoy your new-found faith, and it makes you happy and comfortable. Please do not expect us to believe that you've proven that your god-idea exists however, regardless of the logical debates placed in front of us. Maybe you should just accept that your conversion was a personal and emotional thing, and leave it at that.

Best of luck.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Loss Leader]

I've been thinking that Dustin's efforts to enlist reason to support his religious beliefs result from his insecurity regarding those beliefs.

To me, that's quite obvious. I've always believed the most strident show themselves as being the most insecure. It must be hell to "believe" but not to find peace in those beliefs.

 

[Azure]

He needs to be frustrated and, if possible, stopped.

I guess certain people like to disband freedom of speech...especially when they don't agree with something.

People have the right to express their opinion, whatever it may be.

Perhaps you should stop reading this thread, like you already said you would...if you have a problem with that.

 

[CapelDodger]

I've been thinking that Dustin's efforts to enlist reason to support his religious beliefs result from his insecurity regarding those beliefs.

He also has the zealotry of a convert. He feels obligated to attempt to solidify and validate his new realm while trying to punish and obliterate his old realm.

What now, we're going to analyse the guy? He's standing right here. How rude is that?

I don't see the "zealotry of a convert", I see somebody that's very full of themselves and a part of that self is an acceptance of the supernatural picked up in infancy. Not proven or demonstrated, just taught as fact and accepted as such. This didn't interfere with learning about the real, materialistic world which his undemanding religion fitted into very comfortably. So comfortably it made no actual impression. The only world he knows is the materialistic one, and he uses its tools because they're all he's got.

For some reason Dustin feels the need to justify his infantile error by demonstrating that it wasn't an error at all. Far more sensible to dump it as being not his fault, but that's not an option he's taken. I don't see a happy ending, frankly.

 

[D'rok]

Dustin, I hope you enjoy your new-found faith, and it makes you happy and comfortable. Please do not expect us to believe that you've proven that your god-idea exists however, regardless of the logical debates placed in front of us. Maybe you should just accept that your conversion was a personal and emotional thing, and leave it at that.

Best of luck.

Cheers,
TGHO

I agree with this, and I actually feel a little guilty about the tone of some of my posts.

Dustin, I'm sure an apology from me probably doesn't matter to you one way or the other, but you have it. I'm sorry for some of the scorn I've heaped on you. I do respect your beliefs, just not your approach.

Cheers,

D'rok

 

[Complexity]

I guess certain people like to disband freedom of speech...especially when they don't agree with something.

People have the right to express their opinion, whatever it may be.

Perhaps you should stop reading this thread, like you already said you would...if you have a problem with that.

I want Dustin, silly people like him, and even you to enjoy freedom of speech. I want these people to proclaim their superstitious beliefs to the treetops - it helps us identify them and their idiocy.

I don't want to shut him up - I want him to think better.

If he won't think better, I want to warn people who might be susceptible that there is error and danger around him.

Stop reading this thread? Don't be silly - I've got to keep informed about what the lunatics are doing.

 

[Azure]

I don't want to shut him up

Yes you do.

if possible, stopped.

 

[Complexity]

What now, we're going to analyse the guy? He's standing right here. How rude is that?

Dustin has adopted a belief system that encourages its believers to eagerly anticipate my roasting for eternity in hell.

Dustin has stated that he wants a fundamentalist Christian theocracy to govern this country and, I'm sure, the rest of the world.

Dustin wants to use whatever powers he can muster, including the government, to shove his ideas down every person's throat.

Dustin has a lot to answer for. I see no reason to let him off the hook.

 

[CapelDodger]

Gidday All,

Well, the thread has moved on a bit since my last post of last night.

Like the proverbial of a shiny shovel. It grow quicker than bamboo. I've skipped a bunch of it.

Interesting reading. I generally agree with the majority that there is no issue with someone being religious, as long as they realise that their faith is an emotional response to stimuli, and can not be supported with logic or empirical evidence.

There's no problem with the unexamined life as long as it's a good one. I won't challenge a believer per se, nor do I expect them to challenge themselves - unless I have a problem with their beliefs. With most believers, I don't. The nicest wedding I was ever best man at was between two devout Christians in a Baptist church, down in the West Country. They're nice people to the bone. By instinct.

 

[Complexity]

Azure, you charming goofball,

By 'stopping' Dustin, I mean to interfer with the damage that he will do to others - not by silencing him, but making his flaws more obvious.

 

[Azure]

Azure, you charming goofball,

By 'stopping' Dustin, I mean to interfer with the damage that he will do to others - not by silencing him, but making his flaws more obvious.

Of course that is want you meant.

Next time sticky it.

 

[Complexity]

Azure, you less-than-charming goofball,

You believe what you want and I'll just have to go along with my life.

It is obvious that there is no shutting Dustin up, and I wouldn't if I could.

This is not a game.

Most of my friends are religious, and we coexist and enjoy our friendship quite happily. I don't try to change them and they don't try to change me. We treat each other with respect even if we don't always understand each other or agree with each other. We don't regard each other as threats.

There are many others out there, religious, agnostic, or atheist, that I do regard as threats. They're not content to enjoy their lives and allow others to enjoy theirs. They crave power and control and will do whatever they can get away with to achieve it.

They continue to wound and end lives.

These are the people who should be stopped - not silenced, stopped. Rendered impotent. Clear enough for you?

Dustin has aligned himself with these people. He endorses the use of force to promulgate his religion.

As much as it saddens me, Azure, I'm afraid I won't be able to oblige you by shutting up and going away.

Far too much is at stake.

 

[Azure]

You said yourself you were going away.

I was just holding you to your word.

 

[Z]

The verb equivalent of oxymoron.

Oxymoronate? Oxymoronize? Oxymoring?

heh heh.

Faith is something felt and unexamined, logic has no purchase on it.

Exactly. Belief without evidence is faith; belief with evidence is knowledge; belief against evidence is stupidity.

Claiming evidence where none is present to justify faith is arrogance.

 

[Complexity]

You said yourself you were going away.


I was just holding you to your word.

Well, Azure, I am going to go away.

I'm going to make some dinner, watch some TV, and do some research.

I'll be back later tonight to check in on things.

Then I'm going to bed and read for a while. Then I'll sleep.

Tomorrow morning, I plan to wake up and come back.

Do you have any objections?

It is hard to look away from train wrecks of this magnitude.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

You said yourself you were going away.

I was just holding you to your word.

Azure, could you please stop telling people to go away?

 

[Azure]

Azure, could you please stop telling people to go away?

I actually like doing that.

Its like certain people coming on here and telling others their belief is silly.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Its like certain people coming on here and telling others their belief is silly.

Belief without a basis in objective evidence is silly. But it's also very human. Nothing intrinsically wrong with it. But please recognise that it is, actually, silly.



Cheers,
TGHO