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"Progressives" Win Big Over Establishment Democrats

3point14 said:
Thank you, yes, that all makes perfect sense. But I'm trying to find out a US viewpoint. Someone or someone's have done such a superb job of maneuvering the Overton window to the right in the US that sick leave is now a left wing evil.
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Regarding that specific point, AFAIK sick leave has been considered to be an issue as long as I've been around - heck even taking vacation is viewed as being not sufficiently committed to the company.

The US work ethic* is a shock to many or most Europeans.

My experience in a variety of white collar roles is that in Europe we are typically encouraged to work hard but take holidays in order not to burn out. If sick we are encouraged to stay at home and not make colleagues and clients sick.

In the US the culture seems to be that you need to be at work as many hours in the day as you can be, take as little vacation as you can and drag yourself into work no matter how sick you are. Failure to do so indicates a lack of commitment to the cause.


* - In my experience, it tends to be more about presenteeism. Someone who does all their assigned work in an 8 hour day, goes home at 5.30, takes all their allotted vacation is viewed with suspicion. Someone else who gets through a similar amount of work by being there 14 hours a day and never takes a vacation is viewed as having real commitment - despite them "costing" the company more through their relative inefficiency (they don't get paid any more, but in my experience they act as a drag on their colleagues' efficiency).
 
3point14 said:
- Housing as a Human Right - And this one? Is homelessness a right wing policy? I can't understand how this is a uniquely 'left' thing
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I remember a joke years ago about "Conservative Sesame Street", where Oscar the Grouch lives in a trash can because he's lazy and doesn't want to work.

Moving beyond the joke, there is a long-standing belief that if you help the homeless, they have no incentive to stop being homeless. Those shelters and soup kitchens are practically 4-star hotels, after all. Only through suffering and misery will they be driven to improve themselves.
 
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Armitage72 said:
I remember a joke years ago about "Conservative Sesame Street", where Oscar the Grouch lives in a trash can because he's lazy and doesn't want to work.

Moving beyond the joke, there is a long-standing belief that if you help the homeless, they have no incentive to stop being homeless. Those shelters and soup kitchens are practically 4-star hotels, after all. Only through suffering and misery will they be driven to improve themselves.
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Does this make 'suffering and misery' a 'rightist' policy? Or, once again, is universal housing leftist just because it would probably involve tax increases?

As far as I can see, so far 'leftist' policies are those that cost money.
 
3point14 said:
Does this make 'suffering and misery' a 'rightist' policy? Or, once again, is universal housing leftist just because it would probably involve tax increases?

As far as I can see, so far 'leftist' policies are those that cost money.
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In general, it's about "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". Everyone should succeed or fail on their own, with nobody helping them. (Massive government subsidies to farmers, oil companies, etc. don't count.). It's the myth of the "rugged individualists" who built the country all on their own.
If you help "lazy" people, then they'll take advantage of your generosity and continue to take your resources because you've made things too easy for them. Toss them in the deep end of the pool and let them sink or swim on their own.
 
Armitage72 said:
In general, it's about "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". Everyone should succeed or fail on their own, with nobody helping them. (Massive government subsidies to farmers, oil companies, etc. don't count.). It's the myth of the "rugged individualists" who built the country all on their own.
If you help "lazy" people, then they'll take advantage of your generosity and continue to take your resources because you've made things too easy for them. Toss them in the deep end of the pool and let them sink or swim on their own.
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It's all a smokescreen as far as I can see. The sole criteria for labeling something 'leftist' is that it will cost the government money and therefore call for tax increases.
 
3point14 said:
See my list above. If those goals are all extreme left policies, then society and probably the planet are knackered.

What we're saying, at that point, is that the right wing advocate:

The poor dying of curable disease
The taxpayer always funding those that don't work, alternatively, people starving in times of plenty or workhouses.
Only the rich receiving higher education
No maternal, paternal or sick leave
Homelessness
The continuing war on drugs (this one seems to be an actual right wing policy)
Dirty energy
Not supporting veterans.
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These are all standard GOP positions, or at least the very obvious effects of them.

Note that some dems also take at least some of thees positions as well.
 
The Don said:
Regarding that specific point, AFAIK sick leave has been considered to be an issue as long as I've been around - heck even taking vacation is viewed as being not sufficiently committed to the company.

The US work ethic* is a shock to many or most Europeans.

My experience in a variety of white collar roles is that in Europe we are typically encouraged to work hard but take holidays in order not to burn out. If sick we are encouraged to stay at home and not make colleagues and clients sick.

In the US the culture seems to be that you need to be at work as many hours in the day as you can be, take as little vacation as you can and drag yourself into work no matter how sick you are. Failure to do so indicates a lack of commitment to the cause.


* - In my experience, it tends to be more about presenteeism. Someone who does all their assigned work in an 8 hour day, goes home at 5.30, takes all their allotted vacation is viewed with suspicion. Someone else who gets through a similar amount of work by being there 14 hours a day and never takes a vacation is viewed as having real commitment - despite them "costing" the company more through their relative inefficiency (they don't get paid any more, but in my experience they act as a drag on their colleagues' efficiency).
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That last bit. No actually, where I work, and from what I hear this is common, you must take all your vacation (PTO time actually)... BUT, you are expected to take your phone and a laptop and you better respond to emails and calls. My boss actually told me that her boss told her after hiring: if I call you at 2AM on a Saturday night I expect you to answer. I do not work in any sort of emergency/medical field.
 
lobosrul5 said:
My boss actually told me that her boss told her after hiring: if I call you at 2AM on a Saturday night I expect you to answer. I do not work in any sort of emergency/medical field.
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Where on the political spectrum of left to right does my abhorrence of that situation sit?
 
Vacation time, the right to be away from your work (i.e. not contactable in your time),paid maternity and paternity leave, paid sick leave and other similar policies tend to be more popular on the progressive wing of politics which tends to be left/centre left. Progressive politics seems to see people as citizens and human beings. Conservative politics seems to see people as cogs in a big economic machine.
 
zorro99 said:
I don’t see what’s so radical about Medicare for all.
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I don't either, but every time some kind of healthcare proposal is brought up, the first thing I hear is "why should I have to pay for some deadbeat's healthcare?!" followed by "but taxes will go up!"
 
3point14 said:
Thank you! That is very much appreciated.

Now I just need to know which of the items on that list are 'leftist'. Or is it that they're all 'leftist'?


Mr Cleon and Mr Brainster, could you tell me which of the policies on Mr Best's list cause you to use the label 'leftist'?
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- Universal Medicare
- Universal Jobs Guarantee
- Paid Family and Sick Leave
- Housing as a Human Right
- Ending the war on drugs

Pretty much all of those, and I suspect her ideas for campaign finance reform are leftist as well but I have not bothered to peruse them.

The Guardian called her "an unabashed leftist". Perhaps you could pester them for a definition as well?
 
Brainster said:
- Universal Medicare
- Universal Jobs Guarantee
- Paid Family and Sick Leave
- Housing as a Human Right
- Ending the war on drugs

Pretty much all of those, and I suspect her ideas for campaign finance reform are leftist as well but I have not bothered to peruse them.

The Guardian called her "an unabashed leftist". Perhaps you could pester them for a definition as well?
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Pester? Dude, you don't have to read what I write. You don't even have to know I've written everything.

I think you don't know what 'pester' means. If I'm such an imposition, just ignore me.


As I have stated, I'm just trying to examine why the Overton window in the USA has traveled so very, very far to the right that everyone having somewhere to live is an extreme left position. You can indulge in the discussion or not, as you see fit. Nobody is pestering you for anything.


It seems that nobody is promoting the general welfare of The People.
 
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Galaxie said:
I don't either, but every time some kind of healthcare proposal is brought up, the first thing I hear is "why should I have to pay for some deadbeat's healthcare?!" followed by "but taxes will go up!"
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It's the "bootstraps" issue again. If someone doesn't have a job that provides good enough insurance, they should either get a better job with better benefits (which is easy, after all) or magically become wealthy enough to pay insurance premiums or medical bills on their own.
If someone suffers a debilitating illness or injury, they're on their own.
 
3point14 said:
As I have stated, I'm just trying to examine why the Overton window in the USA has traveled so very, very far to the right that everyone having somewhere to live is an extreme left position.
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I've seen arguments that prosperity theology is regaining a hold/strengthening its hold in parts of the US. If you're a good person, you will be rewarded with wealth. If you're wealthy, it's because you're a good person. If you're a bad person, you'll be punished with poverty. If you're poor, it's because you're a bad person.
Poor people are morally inferior, otherwise they wouldn't be poor. It's their own fault. Only they can truly help themselves, by becoming better people.
 
Some more leftism from Ocasio-Cortez:

"Capitalism has not always existed in the world and will not always exist in the world.”
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I hear a lot of bitching from people saying that Trump wants to take us back to the 1950s. From appearances, Ocasio-Cortez would like to take us back to 1917.
 
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