"Progressives" Win Big Over Establishment Democrats

[Mumbles]

You're mixing up candidate Obama of 2007/2008 with POTUS Obama.

Candidate Obama was fully opposed to Romneycare, and said of Hillary's plan "Trying to fix our health care problem by mandating insurance is like trying to fix homelessness by mandating home ownership." He ran on the public option, which was widely understood as being a door to single payer.

On unions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o
Not even iffy.

He ran as a "far left" (for the US) progressive. And it was wildly popular.

Except Hillary also ran on a public option - along with mandatory insurance. In fact, Clinton noted at the time that his plan was hers, but without the unpopular but necessary mandate. As I noted at the time, if you wanted to vote for someone on the far left, you'd have gone with Dennis Kucinich - and pretty much nobody went for him

 

[Jerrymander]

Non sequitur. I am not in deep denial because government can slow it down.

I do deeply deny that Snow Job Trump and the 286 dwarves have created an economic miracle. All the dwarves did was stonewall for the last 6 years of the previous administration while Trump spread lies and conspiracy theories and engaged in covert bimbo exploitation and suppression. Then, when they got a president who would sign off on their crap, they failed repeatedly before barely managing to push a tax bribe through.

And if Trump is an economic miracle why were there less jobs created in 2017 than most of Obama's years in office?

 

[Venom]

Then she went on by giving examples of his far left politics. WTH are you on about?

What do you mean far left though? They are policies to the left of most of the DNC; a peg to the left, if you like.

 

[Brainster]

Here's another example of the trend:

Rep. Joe Crowley, one of the top Democrats in the House of Representatives, lost his New York primary in a shocking upset on Tuesday night to community organizer Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Crowley, having fundraised nearly $3 million for the race in New York’s 14th District, fell easily to a first-time candidate with a viral introduction video, a Democratic Socialists of America membership card, and a proudly leftist agenda. She ran on Medicare-for-all, a federal jobs guarantee, and getting tough on Wall Street. The race was called just before 10 pm for Ocasio-Cortez.

Crowley was widely considered as a potential successor to Nancy Pelosi as leader of the House Democrats. The district is safe D, so there's not much risk in going more progressive, but I suspect Ocasio-Cortez's win may energize the campaigns of leftist candidates in more marginal districts.

 

[3point14]

Here's another example of the trend:



Crowley was widely considered as a potential successor to Nancy Pelosi as leader of the House Democrats. The district is safe D, so there's not much risk in going more progressive, but I suspect Ocasio-Cortez's win may energize the campaigns of leftist candidates in more marginal districts.

Is there any chance you could tell me what policies Ocasio-Cortez espoused that cause you to use the label "leftist"?

 

[Cleon]

Is there any chance you could tell me what policies Ocasio-Cortez espoused that cause you to use the label "leftist"?

She's an active member of Democratic Socialists of America.

I think you can concede the "leftist" label.

 

[3point14]

She's an active member of Democratic Socialists of America.

I think you can concede the "leftist" label.

I really can't, I don't know what the Democratic Socialist of America' espouse.

I want to know what policies she's proposing that Brainster thinks the label 'leftist' applies.

For a start it will help me work out what 'leftist' means. And I also have a bit of a fascination with how far to the right the Overton window has catapulted in the USA. Someone, somewhere here described the US as 'centre right', which I find fascinating. On top of that, I often ask the above question re policies and find out that the 'leftist' concerned is just advocating a tax rise.

Now I want to know what makes you think she's a 'leftist'.




EDIT: Al of this comes with the caveat that describing the whole gamut of a persons opinions on the whole of life as a point in a single dimension is an absolutely *********** stupid and utterly decisive thing to do and we should stop doing it.

 

[Cleon]

I really can't, I don't know what the Democratic Socialist of America' espouse.

I want to know what policies she's proposing that Brainster thinks the label 'leftist' applies.

For a start it will help me work out what 'leftist' means.

Oh, you want to get into one of those hair-splitting, unnecessarily overspecific sidetracks that go on for multiple pages.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[Matthew Best]

Is there any chance you could tell me what policies Ocasio-Cortez espoused that cause you to use the label "leftist"?

I posted her platform elsewhere:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12341745#post12341745

 

[3point14]

Oh, you want to get into one of those hair-splitting, unnecessarily overspecific sidetracks that go on for multiple pages.

I'll leave you to it.

No, no I don't. How on earth did you get there from the very, very specific post I've written.


I do not know on what basis either poster has made their assessment. I'd like to. It's not a difficult question, is it? You both must be aware of a policy proposal, or, to be fair, probably many, that make you both believe the 'leftist' label is appropriate. I'm just asking you to tell me what that information is. How on earth is that splitting hairs.

If you think that asking people, not for their reasoning, but for their source, is 'hair-splitting' and an 'unnecessarily overspecific sidetracks', then, quite frankly, I don't know how to have a dialogue with you.

 

[The Don]

I posted her platform elsewhere:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12341745#post12341745

...and by US standards, pretty much everything on that list is "leftist"

- Universal Medicare
- Universal Jobs Guarantee
- Funding for public schools and universities
- Paid Family and Sick Leave
- Housing as a Human Right
- Ending the war on drugs
- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration
- Green Energy
- Campaign Finance Reform
- Supporting veterans

Even in the UK several of those would be considered leftish.

 

[3point14]

I posted her platform elsewhere:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12341745#post12341745

Here's Ocasio-Cortez's platform:

[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgqWsjSWAAU7NiO.jpg:large[/qimg]

I guess the bit about supporting Trump was on page 2.

Thank you! That is very much appreciated.

Now I just need to know which of the items on that list are 'leftist'. Or is it that they're all 'leftist'?


Mr Cleon and Mr Brainster, could you tell me which of the policies on Mr Best's list cause you to use the label 'leftist'?

 

[Mycroft]

I posted her platform elsewhere:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12341745#post12341745

I'd vote for her.

 

[Cleon]

No, no I don't. How on earth did you get there from the very, very specific post I've written.


I do not know on what basis either poster has made their assessment. I'd like to. It's not a difficult question, is it? You both must be aware of a policy proposal, or, to be fair, probably many, that make you both believe the 'leftist' label is appropriate. I'm just asking you to tell me what that information is. How on earth is that splitting hairs.

If you think that asking people, not for their reasoning, but for their source, is 'hair-splitting' and an 'unnecessarily overspecific sidetracks', then, quite frankly, I don't know how to have a dialogue with you.

I really feel like it's unnecessary to discuss whether a self-described socialist in the United States qualifies as a "leftist."

If you "don't know how to have a dialogue" with me because I find that sort of thing tedious and silly, that's entirely fine with me.

Peace out.

 

[3point14]

...and by US standards, pretty much everything on that list is "leftist"

- Universal Medicare
- Universal Jobs Guarantee
- Funding for public schools and universities
- Paid Family and Sick Leave
- Housing as a Human Right
- Ending the war on drugs
- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration
- Green Energy
- Campaign Finance Reform
- Supporting veterans

Even in the UK several of those would be considered leftish.

Which ones? I can see the 'DREAMers' one and possibly the campaign finance one but other than that, they all seem laudable goals.


- Universal Medicare - This is hardly hard left policy anywhere in the western wordl

- Universal Jobs Guarantee - Seems reasonable. Those that don't have jobs have to be supported by those that do. Seems better to have everyone work (unless one enjoys the downwards pressure on wages and working conditions this brings)


- Funding for public schools and universities - This is an 'extreme left' plicy now? It definitely wasn't a couple of decades ago. Hence my fascination with the Overton Window.


- Paid Family and Sick Leave - As above, is this now extremely left wing?

- Housing as a Human Right - And this one? Is homelessness a right wing policy? I can't understand how this is a uniquely 'left' thing


- Ending the war on drugs - Could be considered extreme left wing. That's why Canada's a socialist hellhole...


- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration - This is a uniquely US problem. I shall assume that the 'extreme left' label applies in this instance.

- Green Energy - Christ no, this can't be a left wing thing. Unless the right wing equivalent is literally making the planet unlivable.

- Campaign Finance Reform - Could be considered left wing. That would make the current position a right wing position, yes?

- Supporting veterans - This is only considered 'fleft wing' because it costs money.



The devil is in the detail. I suspect that the reason a lot of these policies are considered 'left wing' is that they require budget which would require tax increases.

 

[3point14]

I really feel like it's unnecessary to discuss whether a self-described socialist in the United States qualifies as a "leftist."

I think you still misunderstand. I wanted to know what Brainster had read or seen to apply the label. If, of course, all he has seen is the association with the political party with the name 'socialist' in it and stopped there, then I have my answer. It's not a good answer and it's crappy thinking, but it's at least an answer.

If you "don't know how to have a dialogue" with me because I find that sort of thing tedious and silly, that's entirely fine with me.

No, it's because you're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I think it's a cultural thing and, fascinatingly, also tied up with where the Overton Window sits in the USA. You are astonished that I can't see what you see because, for you, 'Socialist' means leftist and no more thinking is required, not even a look at a list of policies and a statement of which you think are left wing. For you, it's all done and dusted at the name.

Again, equally fascinating, but it makes it difficult for me to work out which bits are 'leftist' and which bits aren't.

Peace out.

Thanks

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Now I just need to know which of the items on that list are 'leftist'. Or is it that they're all 'leftist'?

All of them, honestly. And I say that as a very liberal person. These are things you're very unlikely to see from someone on the right, and you're not too likely to see most of them from a moderate (by U.S. standards).

 

[3point14]

All of them, honestly. And I say that as a very liberal person.

See my list above. If those goals are all extreme left policies, then society and probably the planet are knackered.

What we're saying, at that point, is that the right wing advocate:

The poor dying of curable disease
The taxpayer always funding those that don't work, alternatively, people starving in times of plenty or workhouses.
Only the rich receiving higher education
No maternal, paternal or sick leave
Homelessness
The continuing war on drugs (this one seems to be an actual right wing policy)
Dirty energy
Not supporting veterans.

 

[The Don]

Which ones? I can see the 'DREAMers' one and possibly the campaign finance one but other than that, they all seem laudable goals.


- Universal Medicare - This is hardly hard left policy anywhere in the western wordl

- Universal Jobs Guarantee - Seems reasonable. Those that don't have jobs have to be supported by those that do. Seems better to have everyone work (unless one enjoys the downwards pressure on wages and working conditions this brings)


- Funding for public schools and universities - This is an 'extreme left' plicy now? It definitely wasn't a couple of decades ago. Hence my fascination with the Overton Window.


- Paid Family and Sick Leave - As above, is this now extremely left wing?

- Housing as a Human Right - And this one? Is homelessness a right wing policy? I can't understand how this is a uniquely 'left' thing


- Ending the war on drugs - Could be considered extreme left wing. That's why Canada's a socialist hellhole...


- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration - This is a uniquely US problem. I shall assume that the 'extreme left' label applies in this instance.

- Green Energy - Christ no, this can't be a left wing thing. Unless the right wing equivalent is literally making the planet unlivable.

- Campaign Finance Reform - Could be considered left wing. That would make the current position a right wing position, yes?

- Supporting veterans - This is only considered 'fleft wing' because it costs money.



The devil is in the detail. I suspect that the reason a lot of these policies are considered 'left wing' is that they require budget which would require tax increases.

Yes, IMO that's an objective view from someone in Europe but in the US anything which would increase public funding of anything and/or increase welfare and/or interfere with the free market is dangerously left wing.

I've marked those which I think a US right winger would consider leftist with an asterisk:

- Universal Medicare *
Interferes with the free market, gives healthcare to freeloaders

- Universal Jobs Guarantee *
Provides a disincentive to work minimum wage

- Funding for public schools and universities * (for the latter)
Schools, maybe (but keep funding to a minimum), but tertiary education is a privilege not a right

- Paid Family and Sick Leave *
May be an additional cost to business for freeloaders and spongers

- Housing as a Human Right *
Interferes with the free market

- Ending the war on drugs *
Not sure on this one but anything that "undermines" law and order (such as de-militarising the police) is bad

- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration *
Anything other than pulling up the drawbridge is viewed as being slack on illegals which apparently inevitably leads to an MS-13 gang house next door

- Green Energy *
Green energy is definitely a leftist cause. Conservatives want cheap fossil fuels instead. Climate change is a myth (because it snowed last year) and in any case most people like warm weather

- Campaign Finance Reform
Conservatives would like campaign finance reform, just not in that way. They would like all constraints on individuals and corporations slackened and those on organised labour and left wing pressure groups tightened.

- Supporting veterans
Conservatives support helping out veterans but they don't want any peacenik nonsense about valuing all humanity

 

[3point14]

Yes, IMO that's an objective view from someone in Europe but in the US anything which would increase public funding of anything and/or increase welfare and/or interfere with the free market is dangerously left wing.

I've marked those which I think a US right winger would consider leftist with an asterisk:

- Universal Medicare *
Interferes with the free market, gives healthcare to freeloaders

- Universal Jobs Guarantee *
Provides a disincentive to work minimum wage

- Funding for public schools and universities * (for the latter)
Schools, maybe (but keep funding to a minimum), but tertiary education is a privilege not a right

- Paid Family and Sick Leave *
May be an additional cost to business for freeloaders and spongers

- Housing as a Human Right *
Interferes with the free market

- Ending the war on drugs *
Not sure on this one but anything that "undermines" law and order (such as de-militarising the police) is bad

- Protecting DREAMers and TPS simplify immigration *
Anything other than pulling up the drawbridge is viewed as being slack on illegals which apparently inevitably leads to an MS-13 gang house next door

- Green Energy *
Green energy is definitely a leftist cause. Conservatives want cheap fossil fuels instead. Climate change is a myth (because it snowed last year) and in any case most people like warm weather

- Campaign Finance Reform
Conservatives would like campaign finance reform, just not in that way. They would like all constraints on individuals and corporations slackened and those on organised labour and left wing pressure groups tightened.

- Supporting veterans
Conservatives support helping out veterans but they don't want any peacenik nonsense about valuing all humanity

Thank you, yes, that all makes perfect sense. But I'm trying to find out a US viewpoint. Someone or someone's have done such a superb job of maneuvering the Overton window to the right in the US that sick leave is now a left wing evil.

It's utterly fascinating to me. And the difficulty in getting Americans to engage - because, as you can see above, they just don't see that there's even a discussion to be had is also extremely interesting to me.