Primitivism Discussion

[technoextreme]

You just made my point. All stresses are not equal.

You aren't exactly helping your case here though. You have managed to take a sensible stance and managed to somehow make it into an argument stating that living in what any sane person would regard the most stress filled period of mandkind as some happy fantasy land.

 

[Corsair 115]

Meanwhile, people died, people die, people will die.

So you advocate returning to an age where even relatively simple injuries or infections can easily result in death? How is that in any way a benefit to anyone? Would you be as accepting of such deaths if it was your daughter or son who was dying from an infection or injury that would be easily treatable were it not for your chosen retreat into humanity's primitive past?

 

[EGarrett]

Dude, I am not evading you in the least. You aren't interested in having a discussion, just being antagonistic.

I have said numerous times that I personally have a nuanced view of the situation (that is not by any means set in stone). In fact, I part of the reason for starting the thread was to better examine my own thoughts on the subject. I understand you may be used to arguing with simpletons, but that is not the case here.

So far you've said absolutely nothing.

I have said at least 4 or 5 times in this thread that I think there are worthwhile applications of technology.

I have also explained more than once, that I am personally not interested in removing myself from society to adopt a truly primitive lifestyle.

Then you aren't a primitivist.

And please, end the suspense. Why am I "evading" you?

Because any primitivist who could start or participate in this discussion is either disingenuous or self-deluded.

Careful, I think you are about to embarrass yourself.

I'm not the guy you want to goad into an intellectual confrontation.

 

[MatildaGage]

"Why don't I just walk out into the woods....?"
Because I am not the unibomber. I still like some version of a community.

lol

I often use a simple hypothetical with new teachers or interns to illustrate a point:We have a fundraising event. Do we use plastic, paper, or glass cups? They all have different impacts. The real trick (as for me with primitivism) is determining an intelligent balance. There are no simple answers, otherwise there wouldn't be an argument.

That's a big problem, really. When I'm about to buy something I often find myself wondering which choice is best for the environment. Should I buy a brand new steam mop and eliminate use of chemical cleaners? Then it takes energy to make the thing and to use the appliance. So does buying disposable mops.

I wish there was a way to look this stuff up to find out which choice is best....and I can't help but wonder if such a resource would improve consumer behavior.

 

[Belz...]

I am not insinuating we abandon all knowledge, progress, or even technology. I am suggesting (for my argument) that we pick and choose.

Your statement is so vague it sounds like biblical litteralism: only the passages you like are litterally true. The rest are metaphors. But the litteralists will be damned if they tell you how to tell those two apart.

 

[Belz...]

I'm a smoker.

And you ENCOURAGE industries that produce deadly pollution ?

Meanwhile, people died, people die, people will die.

Beautiful.

 

[Belz...]

So you advocate returning to an age where even relatively simple injuries or infections can easily result in death? How is that in any way a benefit to anyone? Would you be as accepting of such deaths if it was your daughter or son who was dying from an infection or injury that would be easily treatable were it not for your chosen retreat into humanity's primitive past?

It's precisely why I say it's just romanticism. Humanity's plight has steadily (if not uniformly) increased. There isn't anything to be prefered from the 18th century, the 13th, or the 4th millenium BCE.

"People die". Sure. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make them live longer and better.

 

[BenBurch]

When I complain about environmental degradation, what I really mean is that I want to return to the Stone Age or, at least, the Middle Ages.

That, and I just hate modernity. I don't know why. It's like Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

That is fine as long as you want to sterilize 99.3% of the population.

Hunter-gather humans needed a huge range in which to forage and hunt, much more than a farming community did. About one human per square mile.

With about 20 million square miles of land on the planet suitable for that sort of lifestyle, you can do the math. One person out of 350 would be allowed to reproduce, and only two children per couple would be allowed. And there might be an issue with the aging populations of the sterilized as they would have nobody to take care of them or even to bury them.

Or did you just plan to kill that many?

 

[Slayhamlet]

It's precisely why I say it's just romanticism. Humanity's plight has steadily (if not uniformly) increased. There isn't anything to be prefered from the 18th century, the 13th, or the 4th millenium BCE.

"People die". Sure. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make them live longer and better.

I think you mean *decreased*.

 

[ponderingturtle]

True, but some (such as myself) only advocate portions of the concept. I think there are aspects of life both helped and hindered by advancement. I guess this makes me a diet-primitivist / pseudo-primitivist / weak-primitivist.
I do embrace the advances in thought (yes, I do realize that most are a result of technology), medicine (ditto), and communication/art (not as much, but still).
I do not embrace the basic lifestyle, consumerism, and the types of stress that modern life entails.
For me, it is far more nuanced than "technology bad, eat dead carcass good".

The lifestyle is dictated by the requirements of the technology that is required for the things you embrace.

I view primitivism as a luxury viewpoint. You live in a very wealthy society and so have the ability to think wealth doesn't matter. Your income is surely incredibly much higher than truly primitive people. And you will have to bury far fewer children on average.

 

[Belz...]

I think you mean *decreased*.

I'm pretty sure I meant things are better now than they used to be.

"Plight" wasn't the best term to use, sure.

Do you disagree with my statement ?

 

[Belz...]

With about 20 million square miles of land on the planet suitable for that sort of lifestyle, you can do the math. One person out of 350 would be allowed to reproduce, and only two children per couple would be allowed. And there might be an issue with the aging populations of the sterilized as they would have nobody to take care of them or even to bury them.

Or did you just plan to kill that many?

Details, details...

 

[Belz...]

I view primitivism as a luxury viewpoint. You live in a very wealthy society and so have the ability to think wealth doesn't matter.

People who bitch and moan about humanity's evils and that nature is much more noble, should exterminate mankind, etc. simpler lifestyle, yadda yadda... they pretty much do so while using every benefit that modern society has bestowed upon them. Hypocrisy at its best.

 

[ProBonoShill]

That's a big problem, really. When I'm about to buy something I often find myself wondering which choice is best for the environment. Should I buy a brand new steam mop and eliminate use of chemical cleaners? Then it takes energy to make the thing and to use the appliance. So does buying disposable mops.

I wish there was a way to look this stuff up to find out which choice is best....and I can't help but wonder if such a resource would improve consumer behavior.

I find myself pondering the same thing.

Which leads to my thoughts on recycling:

When my city created a recycling program, I was eager to get on board and diligently followed the rules. It made me feel good to do what I considered my part in helping to preserve our planet.

After awhile I started to wonder whether recycling was worth all the cost, effort and added pollution.

Of course it's nice if we can turn things like plastic beverage bottles into Halloween costumes, but at what expense?

One garbage truck used to come to my house and pick up everything, now two different trucks come, which means double the harmful emissions, double the wear on the roadways, double the parts for the vehicles, etc.

Add in the hot water and detergent used to clean my dirty jars, cans and bottles and I'm not sure if I'm helping at all.

I continue to recycle (I really have no choice, as we are limited to 2 bags of garbage a week), but I'm curious if the benefits outweigh the cost.

/End derail

 

[Slayhamlet]

I'm pretty sure I meant things are better now than they used to be.

"Plight" wasn't the best term to use, sure.

Do you disagree with my statement ?

I know what you meant, and I quite agree, but "plight" is generally a negative term.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm sure you wouldn't, that much was clear. But if you can cast your mind back to the context of this exchange, you'll recall that you offered an opinion from your experience. I suggested that you widen your experience, so that your opinion would count for something.

My opinion always counts.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I almost missed that. You haven't experienced any (or at least, very few) hippies who live on communes. You've told us that much. But you 'know' they are "almost always idiots".

Evidences?

Are you defining 'idiot' as 'anyone who does something I wouldnt want to do'? In which case there's no call to back up your baseless, offensive assertion I suppose.

No. I define "idiot" as someone who is...well...an idiot.

 

[Perpetual Student]

How would primitivism work out for elderly people? How about those with disabilities? Does the notion of primitivism include the use of antibiotics? vaccinations? Sanitation? Come on, get a grip! People who are attracted by this romantic nonsense called "primitivism" are delusional!

 

[Skeptic]

Gardens are a fun hobby, but aren't very efficient when you actually figure out the time and money you devote to them. You better enjoy that tomato - it cost you $4!

I had the following conversation with a friend of mine whose hunband has a garden...

She: "Want another $300's worth of bean salad?"
Me: "No thanks, just a little bit of of greens. $200's worth or so."

 

[Skeptic]

I've personally said I'm happy to go off and do it with like-minded people, as I've done in the past.

So why didn't you stay? And doesn't it seem rather odd to post on the internet how much you love the primitive life? I suspect you look at the primitive life like other people look at going to the gym: they hate it, but it gives them bragging rights around the water cooler.