Press for truth!

[Oliver]

I'm afraid there is a language problem here. There are some Quebecois posters, and a few others from continental Europe.

Oliver, what are you saying? Please spell it out for us, or you could start your own thread for non-English speakers. I don't think there is any rule against that, but be sure to double-check that.

Sorry Coloumbo. My message was a response to a personal
attack of him - earlier in this thread (#44)

 

[gumboot]

Well, Al Quaida seems to be a "hard nut" if the gov itself did´nt find enough dots to blaim the hijackings on Osama.

They did.

Mhmm, i think the reasons for the attack on 9/11 was americas
foreign policy. So it looks very relevant to me. No matter if LIHOP,
MIHOP or "WHATHAPPEND" was the case.

Well if it was MIHOP you can hardly argue it was a result of American foreign policy. Al Qaeda attacked the USA because they hate the west, and the USA is the most visible symbol of the west. Simple that.

US Foreign Policy during Clinton's admin was increasingly withdrawn (relatively speaking).

-Andrew

 

[Oliver]

I´m astound, Andrew.

They did.

I will investigate this later.

Well if it was MIHOP you can hardly argue it was a result of American foreign policy. Al Qaeda attacked the USA because they hate the west, and the USA is the most visible symbol of the west. Simple that.

US Foreign Policy during Clinton's admin was increasingly withdrawn (relatively speaking).

-Andrew

As far i can argue as an german citizen, all i´ve ever heard
is, that nobody really was wondering why this happened.

Even if the whole world was shocked and we never heard
of Al Quaida or Osama Bin Laden before...

People talked even years before 9/11 about the us
foreign policy and felt it is wrong. Also in the Media there
were reports about all the "Install- Deinstall leaders"-
politics, wich build this position here.

And i know from muslim people, too, that this mind
exits in their head and in the muslim world, too.

But i can only speak for my expieriences, i don´t
know if this mind exists everywhere in europe.

I´m confused. No kidding.

ADDED:

And because you did´nt know that, what did you
Guys in here think, was the reason for Al Quaidas
hate???

 

[Oliver]

Would it be annoying anyone if i ask this in a new
thread. I really would like to know what people
from other countries have to say to this?

I ask you because you know the people in
here better than me...

 

[gumboot]

Would it be annoying anyone if i ask this in a new
thread. I really would like to know what people
from other countries have to say to this?

I ask you because you know the people in
here better than me...

I think that would be better suited to the politics subforum.

Osama bin Laden cites his main grievance against the US being their presence in Saudi Arabia (Saudi Arabia invited US forces into the country after Iraq invaded Kuwait).

However he also also offered up any other excuse that is available, and has, on a number of occasions, demanded that the entire US convert to Islam.

What they present as arguments is actually irrelevant. All that matters is what they are saying amongst themselves.

Al Qaeda's stated goal in their training manual is as follows:

The main mission for which the Military Organization is responsible is:

The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:

1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3. Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy.
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality, and sin; not a vital target.
7. Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the cities.

-The Al Qaeda Manual
First Lesson: General Introduction

As you can see, Al Qaeda's actions have nothing to do with foreign policy, and everything to do with religious extremism. Westerners need to stop making up excuses for their actions and confront the ugly truth about these people. Until we do we will never beat them.

-Andrew

 

[sleahead]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Mhmm, i think the reasons for the attack on 9/11 was americas
foreign policy. So it looks very relevant to me. No matter if LIHOP,
MIHOP or "WHATHAPPEND" was the case.

Oliver, please state which aspects of US foreign policy you consider relevant.

 

[gumboot]

I will investigate this later.

19 Hijackers have been identified from the four flights, all of whom are linked to Al Qaeda. Some of them have been with Al Qaeda for years. There is video of them meeting with Osama Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - the mastermind of 9/11. Their "martyr tapes" are available on the internet. Al Qaeda has repeatedly claimed responsibility for the attacks, and captured members have collaborated this.

The 9/11 attacks fits the Al Qaeda M.O. perfectly, and is a modified version of stage two of an earlier thwarted Al Qaeda plot called "Bojinka" (the recent thwarted London airline bombing plot is a fresh attempt at Bojinka One).

Zacarias Moussaoui, an Al Qaeda member and the so-called "20th Hijacker" is serving six life sentences for the following crimes:

Conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries
Conspiracy to commit aircraft piracy
Conspiracy to destroy aircraft
Conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction
Conspiracy to murder United States employees
Conspiracy to destroy property

As you can see, there is ample evidence that Al Qaeda committed 9/11. I recommend watching the video "The Usual Suspects" created by a fellow JREFer named Karim.

-Andrew

 

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Oliver
Oliver, please state which aspects of US foreign policy you consider relevant.

Every non-friendly intervention, especially military
intervention. I´m shocked - i really thought american
people knew why this happend. But i don´t want
to discuss this any further before i don´t get a
general picture of other people thoughts about
that. It´s not my intention to step into trouble.

All i can say is:

There is a general negative mind about american
foreign policy -where i live-. And i´m talking about
foreign politics, not american people.

 

[Dora]

Wow, my first post
I’m not as educated as you people so I tend to lurk

Since I saw several remarks from Childlike Empress “We need an independent international investigation of 9/11” (or the likes) I’m very glad to inform her that the Technical University of Delft (The Netherlands) has been studying the possibility if the attacks of 9/11 could have been the works of an American conspiracy.

They will be presenting their findings more detailed this afternoon, but the main findings are that – hang on to your seats here – the collapse of the WTC and the damage on the pentagon has been caused by airliners crashing into them.

I’ll keep an eye on this, since their site has an English part too, I assume there will be an English version for you non-Dutch speakers, as soon as any info about it pops up on their site, I’ll post a direct link (just got a message I need to post a bit more to do that so I’ll do my best k. )

 

[Oliver]

As you can see, there is ample evidence that Al Qaeda committed 9/11. I recommend watching the video "The Usual Suspects" created by a fellow JREFer named Karim.
-Andrew

I know all about this, Andrew. I meant about the
FBI-site, wich seems to have still not enough proof
to blame so for the hijackings.

Maybe this is also discussed and disproofed before.
But i had no time until now to read more about it.

But thank you for your help, Andrew. I appreciate
that you take that time of yours, really.

 

[The_Fire]

Wow, my first post
I’m not as educated as you people so I tend to lurk

Since I saw several remarks from Childlike Empress “We need an independent international investigation of 9/11” (or the likes) I’m very glad to inform her that the Technical University of Delft (The Netherlands) has been studying the possibility if the attacks of 9/11 could have been the works of an American conspiracy.

They will be presenting their findings more detailed this afternoon, but the main findings are that – hang on to your seats here – the collapse of the WTC and the damage on the pentagon has been caused by airliners crashing into them.

I’ll keep an eye on this, since their site has an English part too, I assume there will be an English version for you non-Dutch speakers, as soon as any info about it pops up on their site, I’ll post a direct link (just got a message I need to post a bit more to do that so I’ll do my best k. )

Just post with out the http://www part. And welcome.

 

[gumboot]

Every non-friendly intervention, especially military
intervention. I´m shocked - i really thought american
people knew why this happend. But i don´t want
to discuss this any further before i don´t get a
general picture of other people thoughts about
that. It´s not my intention to step into trouble.

Oliver you should have no fear of "stepping into trouble". You are entitled to your opinion, and for the most part the members of JREF will respect your opinions. You will only run into fierce resistance if you make unsupported claims and refuse to withdraw them when proven false.

Or if you post in a Palestine/Israel thread...

I think Americans are well aware that there is strong criticism of them throughout the world. Most of that criticism, IMHO, is not justified. But that's just my opinion.

What I don't agree with is that Al Qaeda is motivated by this. They use it as an excuse and a justification, but in my opinion what motives them (by their own words as I posted above) is a desire to establish a Muslim caliphate "from Spain to Indonesia". According to their own beliefs, it is prophecised that Allah will not come to earth until the entire globe follow Islam. For whatever reason they are keen to see Allah returning to earth ASAP.

If you have any doubts about Al Qaeda's true identity I suggest you track down the Al Qaeda Manual and have a read of it. It's a rather eye-opening document.

Another I would recommend would be the Muslim Brotherhood document entitled "The Project". You can read a translation here.

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

I know all about this, Andrew.I meant about the
FBI-site, wich seems to have still not enough proof to blame so for the hijackings.

Maybe this is also discussed and disproofed before.
But i had no time until now to read more about it.

But thank you for your help, Andrew. I appreciate
that you take that time of yours, really.

The problem with the FBI site is they can only list people as wanted who have been indicted for crimes. That is, formal charges have been brought to bear. As you probably know, the western world has very stringent and robust requirements for evidence in our courts, to ensure people are not falsely accused and convicted.

This means lots of evidence is not acceptable. In the case of people like Osama bin Laden, the evidence that exists is sufficient to prove him guilty in a "common" sense - in that we may amongst ourselves look at the facts and go "yup he did it" but this same evidence cannot be used to lay charges against him (most of it, I gather, is due to the chain of custody requirements for all evidence). As such, he cannot be indicted, and thus the FBI cannot add details specifically about 9/11 to his wanted poster (hence the referral to "other terrorist attacks").

It's like if a cop catches a guy in the act of killing someone, but forgets to say his rights properly, or whatever.

I am sure someone here more familiar with the US legal system than me can provide a more thorough and more useful explanation for how it all works.

-Andrew

 

[Dora]

Every non-friendly intervention, especially military
intervention. I´m shocked - i really thought american
people knew why this happend. But i don´t want
to discuss this any further before i don´t get a
general picture of other people thoughts about
that. It´s not my intention to step into trouble.

All i can say is:

There is a general negative mind about american
foreign policy -where i live-. And i´m talking about
foreign politics, not american people.

Well, Oliver, since I'm not American either (born in Germany, live in Belgium now) I do understand your question to the American people.
I just think you are confusing the American news with what American people think.
The few American friends I have and with who I discussed the issue, they do realise their governments actions have been one of the reasons (if not one of the biggest)
the other reason being of course that the people that commited these crimes are fanatics - the kind of fanatic that thinks for example having your women running around on the streets not covered up from top to bottom is a sin because they might tempt the men into sinning.
For the people that do not agree with our way of living (you know,equal rights for everyone - I'm not even going to go into the "who's praying to the correct god" part) America is the most clear example of their so much dispised western way of living.

I know a lot of people in Europe think America had this coming, I'm one of them, but that does not mean I have been cheering when it happened, tbh, the first minute, I was really waiting for Bruce Willis to jump into the picture and it all being a commercial for DIE HARD 5 (or something)
when the truth hit me I tried calling my husband at work and was bawling so hard it took him a while to understand what I was saying.

 

[Oliver]

Oliver you should have no fear of "stepping into trouble". You are entitled to your opinion, and for the most part the members of JREF will respect your opinions. You will only run into fierce resistance if you make unsupported claims and refuse to withdraw them when proven false.
Another I would recommend would be the Muslim Brotherhood document entitled "The Project". You can read a translation here.

-Andrew

You´re from New Zealand, Andrew. Not America. And it´s a
general question about 9/11. I would prefer to ask that
in here - also because this is a more international forum
then politics with just americans in it.

It´s an international question i have.

 

[Dora]

ok, going to clarify the had it comming a bit since I can't seem to get this foot out of my mouth now.

the way I see it was that America being so proud of never having fought a war on their own soil it was almost inevitable that some fanatic attacked them.
well, at least, that's how I see it, can't speak for all the others of course.

 

[Oliver]

I know a lot of people in Europe think America had this coming, I'm one of them, but that does not mean I have been cheering when it happened, tbh, the first minute, I was really waiting for Bruce Willis to jump into the picture and it all being a commercial for DIE HARD 5 (or something)
when the truth hit me I tried calling my husband at work and was bawling so hard it took him a while to understand what I was saying.

Hello Dora and welcome to the forum, as well.

I´m sorry, i could´nt translate "dispised".

This day, i was surfing
the Internet for hours before i switched the television
on and did´nt realized it, i did´nt want to see bad news,
"a burning skyscraper" so i switched to another channel,
the same thing, other channel, same thing.

I turned my tv louder, sat down and listened for
i don´t know how long. And when i realized what happend,
it was like a hit in the face - even if i did´nt understand
it completly - till now.

I even don´t remember who i´ve called or what i did the
rest of the day.

 

[Oliver]

ok, going to clarify the had it comming a bit since I can't seem to get this foot out of my mouth now.

the way I see it was that America being so proud of never having fought a war on their own soil it was almost inevitable that some fanatic attacked them.
well, at least, that's how I see it, can't speak for all the others of course.

Yeah, that´s the same way the people around and me
thought about it. But it was a horrible shock. I remind
that the people in my firm did´nt talk about it for
some days. They all "worked" on that issue.

 

[Oliver]

I just think you are confusing the American news with what American people think.

I´m sorry, Dora - i lost the context to referring to "people-media".
Why do you think i´m confused between people and media?
I was confused that Andrew did´nt thought "america had it´s coming".
I automatically thought if he does´nt know that beeing a lot
of time in here as "Neuseeländer" - the americans might think the same".

 

[sleahead]

Every non-friendly intervention, especially military
intervention. I´m shocked - i really thought american
people knew why this happend

Oliver, Please elaborate on this. BTW, I'm not american.