Press for truth!

Stop for a moment.

Forget about all you are involved in here. Forget about Dylan Avery, the Jones', Controlled Demolition, your fight against the so called "Truth Movement".

Now watch this video: 9/11 Press for truth

We need an independent international investigation of 9/11. You have to stop mocking the victims. I feel with the people of the united states of america and hope you will take your country back. Thanks and good luck.

First off Childlike, no one here is mocking the victims, and you have zero right to claim that they are. Indeed, you owe everyone here an apology for even suggesting it.

You want to talk about mocking victims? How about Photoshopping feces onto images of the victims' graves? Or suggesting that a father knowingly sent a son to his death? Or claiming passengers were cowards for not laughing at the boxcutters wielded by the terrorists? That's what I call mocking. And guess who's doing it? Not the folks here at JREF, but your buddies over in in LC forum. (Yeah yeah I know, they're not your buddies...spare me, OK?

You may be incapable of recongizing it, Childlike, but in fact we do endeavor to "press for truth." The problem is, no matter how hard we press, the truth just doesn't seem to penetrate into your little world.
 
First off Childlike, no one here is mocking the victims, and you have zero right to claim that they are. Indeed, you owe everyone here an apology for even suggesting it.

It seems to me that theres a lot of missunderstanding
in here.

If Childlike meant it the same way i understand it (wich
seems to be a CT for it´s own for some people), she
talks about that "every discussion about the pentagon,
bombs, shanksville and so on is like "twisting a knife in
their wounds".

The Documentary was >supported< by the victims
families. You have to listen what >>>>they<<<<
really want to know - all people in here do ignore
this and i don´t know why(?).

It´s like they all give a f. about the victims and their
family, correct me if i´m wrong.
 
I followed the development of this whole mess since the first day and the unanswered questions asked in this film are quite exactly my questions that lead me to be 100% convinced that the official story is bogus.
In that case you are 100% wrong.

The people on this forum are falling for deception. They still debunk question asked by con artists. It's sad to see how deep your cognitive dissonance goes.
Boo-frickety-hoo.
 
The Documentary was >supported< by the victims
families. You have to listen what >>>>they<<<<
really want to know - all people in here do ignore
this and i don´t know why(?).

It´s like they all give a f. about the victims and their
family, correct me if i´m wrong.


Some of the family members of victims are not happy with the commission report. Some of them expected the report to blame someone. Some of them wanted someone in government to go to jail for 9/11. Some of them believe things about 9/11 that simply aren't true (no military response, for example).

I have utmost sympathy for their loss, but that doesn't mean I'll accept anything they claim blindly. I am interested in understanding the TRUTH about what happened for the sake of the VICTIMS, and for the sake of all of us.

Not, frankly, to make the families of victims feel better.

-Andrew
 
I have utmost sympathy for their loss, but that doesn't mean I'll accept anything they claim blindly. I am interested in understanding the TRUTH about what happened for the sake of the VICTIMS, and for the sake of all of us.

Not, frankly, to make the families of victims feel better.
-Andrew

You get the message wrong, Andrew. We talked about why are people
mocking the victims. If you ever lost a very loved one and you know that
he died and how he died:

What would you think if thousands of people claim that it was different to
what you first thought how it happend.

What would you think if thousands believe, they did´nt die in Shanksville.
Would´nt that mean a lot of pain to you? Questing yourself: "May he or
she still alive?". "How did they die?", "Was it a lie what we´ve been told?".

Now if this is not mocking the victims, what is it then?

Off course the families have different wishes, but as longer the discussion
lasts, the more get involved to it. And it was shameful from the government
to pay them off if they agree to not sue them - (if the story is true).

But i´m glad to see that you´re trying to find the truth, and i´m glad that
you´re following your own way and intuition.

So do i. Even if i only use to talk if it´s necessary or to move someting.
It seems to me, that a lot of people in here are stucked in millions of
details, loosing sight of the whole thing itself. And it seems to me that
other, btw. very smart people, use to ignore some things because of their
politcal views. (Fading things out.(General: Don´t take it personal, think
about it.))

I want to know the truth about 911, not my truth - just like you, i guess.
 
You get the message wrong, Andrew. We talked about why are people
mocking the victims. If you ever lost a very loved one and you know that
he died and how he died:

What would you think if thousands of people claim that it was different to
what you first thought how it happend.


If the "evidence" for their claims were as weak as the ones these people are pushing, I'd be utterly furious. If they then used their claims to make money and push a political agenda, like the 9/11 CTers are, I'd be pathological.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support ANY of their claims.

Please absorb that statement. Their claims are utterly devoid of evidence. Not a shred exists.


Off course the families have different wishes, but as longer the discussion
lasts, the more get involved to it. And it was shameful from the government
to pay them off if they agree to not sue them - (if the story is true).


It is standard practise that a compensation claim involves an agreement not to seek further damages. This is and has been standard practise throughout the western world for a very long time.

Frankly I find the entire litigation culture of the US utterly disgusting. It simply encourages the witch-burning blame-mentality that seems to be rampant in the States.

In New Zealand, for example, you cannot bring a civil case against someone for personal injury or loss.

-Andrew
 
There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support ANY of their claims.Please absorb that statement. Their claims are utterly devoid of evidence. Not a shred exists.

Call me stupid, but i´m working on that. :D Do you think
that "somethings rotten in state of denmark" concerning
the foreknowledge and coverup? pm? For me it looks like a
real chance to find something - and i´m no LIHOP, MIHOP,
HIBOB, HIPHOP at all. Still searching...
 
Call me stupid, but i´m working on that. :D


This may be a language barrier thing, but a statement like that worries me. Why would you specifically look for evidence of a particular thing? Surely the point of investigation is to gather ALL evidence and base a conclusion on that, not go hunting for specific evidence that supports a given point of view.



Do you think that "somethings rotten in state of denmark" concerning
the foreknowledge and coverup? pm? For me it looks like a real chance to find something - and i´m no LIHOP, MIHOP, HIBOB, HIPHOP at all. Still searching...

To a degree. But I don't see it as overly significant. The way I see it the US administration was (quite rightly) afraid that the US people would want to see them hang for allowing an attack to happen on their watch.

Bear in mind the 9/11 Commission Report was not an investigation into the attacks. The investigations into the attacks were carried out by the various departments that are responsible for such things - the FBI, NTSB, FAA, NIST, and so forth.

In simple terms, the commission report was a witch hunt. The families of victims wanted to blame someone in government for the attacks, and they pressured for the establishment of the commission to do just that. While I think governments should be as transparent as possible, and while I think the Bush administration really behaved wrongly in many ways, I completely understanded their resistance to the investigation.

The fact that the main instigators of the report so thoroughly rejected its conclusion that no one in government had been negligent to me confirms their bias and the simple fact that they were out for blood, not the truth.

And that doesn't surprise me either. It's just like the parents of a boy killed in a high speed police chase here who wanted the police to swing for the crime.

Typical blame mentality. It's part of the grieving processes. I'm not especially keen on societies indulging it, because it's irrational and it's a stage that victims' families need to get over. Otherwise they will never be able to get on with their lives.

In the end I don't believe there was a coverup. There were delays, and questionable tactics by the administration. But I see no evidence of anything being covered up.

As I've said before, for me the only gaping hole in the "official story" is why Bush remained where he was so long. That's a decision someone in the Secret Service made, and I've never ehard why. I'd like to know. Otherwise, the entire storyline fits together, in my opinion.

As for foreknowledge. As I've said in this thread. I've yet to see any evidence of specific actionable intelligence regarding the attacks. The "dots" that people so often bring up were not all that was out there - they were grains of sand on a beach. In hindsight they stick out, of course. At the time? No.

I've said it many times. The US was hit because of three flaws:

1) Treatment of terrorists as criminals who need to be brought to justice in a fair trail in a liberal western court of law.
2) US reluctance to act (militarily) in the international arena (this reluctance is evident throughout America's history but became especially prevalent in Clinton's administration)
3) US over-confidence in the capabilities of their military, security, and intelligence assets (combined with gross underestimation of the threat)

None of these, IMHO, point to incompetence or negligence. These above are all aspects of American SOCIETY, not American government or policy. These are features of the nation the American people WANTED (and mostly, still want).

In fact, these three features are the very same reason Islamic Terrorists target the US in the first place.

The choice for the US is, do we continue being as free as we want to be, and simply absorb a 9/11 attack every now and then, do we have a back-lash and become a sort of police state, or do we try find a balance?

The current administration seems to be trying to do the latter (which is what I'd recommend). Some think they're trying the second option, and others think the first is the best.

I go for the third, and I think the US government is too. I also think it takes trial and error. Like flicking a branch on a tree, the oscilations bounce side to side for a while before equilibrium is found. 9/11 was a horrific event, and I think the government have swung back too far, in their efforts to find balance. I think another government will probably react to that by swinging it back too far the other way. And so on. hopefully, one day, a government will find a balance between the two. I'd expect it to have more constraints than the pre 9/11 America, but it won't be a police state by a long shot.

-Andrew
 
Call me stupid, but i´m working on that. :D Do you think
that "somethings rotten in state of denmark" concerning
the foreknowledge and coverup? pm? For me it looks like a
real chance to find something - and i´m no LIHOP, MIHOP,
HIBOB, HIPHOP at all. Still searching...

No Oliver, I won't call you stupid. But I will say that the theories pushed by Childlike Empress, Loose Change, and the entire CTist community certainly are. 9/11 has got to be the most well-observed, well-documented, well-understood, well-explained, and public event in the history of mankind. Everything points to the official explanation -- that 19 identified Middle Eastern terrorists carried out the plot as observed by millions of people -- being correct. Nothing points to it being an inside job. It's as simple as that. With so many things in this world to which one could devote time and effort to that would benefit society, it's such a waste for anyone to spend a single second persuing the phantom pixels and shadows that exist only in the minds of CTists.

A few members of the victim's families may feel there's more to 9/11 than meets the eye. Given the sheer numbers involved -- probably many thousands, considering all the people that died -- it would be surprising if it were otherwise. Most victim comments that I've seen, however, condemn the CTists and their theories. One said something to the effect that the only thing Loose Change got right about 9/11 was the date. It is my utter conviction that if anyone is doing any mocking of victims, it's not those of use who disagree with the CTists.
 
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A few members of the victim's families may feel there's more to 9/11 than meets the eye. Given the sheer numbers involved -- probably many thousands, considering all the people that died -- it would be surprising if it were otherwise.


Given the Average american family has 2.3 children, that's an average of 3.3 immediate family-unit members for each victim, or 9,886.8 in total - and that's just immediate family members.

If 1% of Americans believed in some form of 9/11 CT, that would mean you'd expect almost 100 of the direct family-unit relatives of the victims to believe in some form of 9/11 CT too.

-Andrew
 
As I've said before, for me the only gaping hole in the "official story" is why Bush remained where he was so long. That's a decision someone in the Secret Service made, and I've never ehard why. I'd like to know. Otherwise, the entire storyline fits together, in my opinion.

From what I understand, the President was asked to wait there until the building was secure and the route back to Air Force One was secure. Since the President's visit was public knowledge, it would not be unreasonable to think that the attacks might lead to an attack on where the President was.

As an example of how they secure the route, I'll tell you of my own personal experiences. A couple of years ago I was moving to Mankato, MN. Unfortunately, I chose the day that Pres. Bush was going to visit the Vikings training camp to move. My sister, who until recently had lived near a military base, was helping me, she paused a moment and said "blackhawks." Then two Blackhawk helicopters flew directly overhead, about 100 ft off the ground. If this level of security was true for Presidential Motorcades prior to 9/11, this is probably one of the things they had to set in motion before they could get him to Air Force One. Also, during the Carter Administration, I saw Air Force One at the airport terminal that would later be named for the man Pres. Carter was visiting (former VP Hubert H. Humphrey). He never left the tarmac, but gave a speach from the base of the steps. Meanwhile, helicopters were flying nearby. I was about 8 years old then, so can't tell you what kind they were.
 
Now watch this video:

Well, that was a waste of 85 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. There appears to be nothing new or recent in that video except for some of the shots of a few family members of victims . It left me with the distinct impression that it was created a few years ago, shelved, and then with the 5th anniversary approaching, someone dusted it off and added some current human interest shots but didn't bother to update the "factual" content and didn't bother to add any current factual content.

It also struck me as odd that the entire premise of the video seems to be that "the media never covered this" while basing everything in the video upon reports from the very same media that purportedly "never covered this".
 
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You want to talk about mocking victims? How about Photoshopping feces onto images of the victims' graves?

WTF?! Where did this happen?

I hope all of us here at the JREF Forum, while we may be driven to mock the CTer and their CTs, we never the victims and the event itself.
 
This may be a language barrier thing, but a statement like that worries me. Why would you specifically look for evidence of a particular thing? Surely the point of investigation is to gather ALL evidence and base a conclusion on that, not go hunting for specific evidence that supports a given point of view.

Because i´m far more interested in "who did and who was involved"
instead of "was there a plane or not"-kind of stuff, wich has not much
to do with each other. You know: even if someone finds evidence, for
example chemical evidence for bombs, it would´nt bring someone further.
And they have to look into the "involvement"-side anyway. So i skip
these - for me useless parts. But i would appreciate if you think it´s
important nevertheless and why.

The choice for the US is, do we continue being as free as we want to be, and simply absorb a 9/11 attack every now and then, do we have a back-lash and become a sort of police state, or do we try find a balance?

You gave me a lot of ideas to think about and to include in my part
of research but you have to excuse me, that i don´t want to speculate
on that right now, you know - new, knewing to less and still learning.

But let me ask this: what about the fourth option to the gov to strike a
new path: the pre-9/11 constitution but a more friendly curse in it´s
foreign policy. I wonder why they don´t choose this option. (maybe a
key for some hate against america).

I keep your information in my mind during my time to catch up with all
things i missed so far, Andrew - and i also would appreciate if i may ask
you questions when i find something that does not sum up.

Thank you very much.

@Stellafane: I don´t think it that it was´nt the 19 Terrorists and i don´t
agree with most parts of LC and co. But as i said. New to the issue,
highly interested and still learing.

@lashL: Do something usefull - debunk it to its atoms and
write a book about it, please. I would buy it right now. :D
Was: "He's just another phony"
 
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But i would appreciate if you think it´s
important nevertheless and why.


Sorry, I'm meaning specific evidence hunting. In other words...

I might look for evidence for who carried out 9/11. And That might evidence might point to Al Qaeda.

A CTer will ignore all that evidence, and specifically (and only) look for evidence (no matter how questionable) that the US government carried out 9/11.



But let me ask this: what about the fourth option to the gov to strike a
new path: the pre-9/11 constitution but a more friendly curse in it´s
foreign policy. I wonder why they don´t choose this option. (maybe a
key for some hate against america).


I'm not sure that foreign policy is relevant. The question is how well the USA was protected from threats. I suppose you could add a fourth option that the USA could downgrade their security even further and become MORE free, but I can't really see anyone thinking that's a good idea...



and i also would appreciate if i may ask you questions when i find something that does not sum up.


Of course. You will find the many knowledgable members of JREF (far more knowledgable than me!) are quick to provide answers to genuine questions.

-Andrew
 
@lashL: Do something usefull - debunk it to its atoms and
write a book about it, please. I would buy it right now. :D

Either you haven't been paying attention or you deliberately misconstrued what I wrote. What I said is that there is nothing new in the "press for truth" video (other than the additions of the more recent human interest bits), that it all appears to be based on old news, and that it's odd that its main premise is that the news has not been reported by the media even while it cites the very same media as its sources.

Did you not understand my post or are you deliberately trying to be a jerk with your unresponsive response and your wholly inappropriate grinning smiley face?
 
Sorry, I'm meaning specific evidence hunting. In other words... I might look for evidence for who carried out 9/11. And That might evidence might point to Al Qaeda. A CTer will ignore all that evidence, and specifically (and only) look for evidence (no matter how questionable) that the US government carried out 9/11.

Well, Al Quaida seems to be a "hard nut" if the gov itself did´nt
find enough dots to blaim the hijackings on Osama. It would be
great to have a Forum with lot of foreign people with their different
languages to find far more about the events. There might be a lot of
things in articles, we all just can´t read. How multilingual is this board
in terms of members? (general question)

I'm not sure that foreign policy is relevant. The question is how well the USA was protected from threats. I suppose you could add a fourth option that the USA could downgrade their security even further and become MORE free, but I can't really see anyone thinking that's a good idea...

Mhmm, i think the reasons for the attack on 9/11 was americas
foreign policy. So it looks very relevant to me. No matter if LIHOP,
MIHOP or "WHATHAPPEND" was the case.

Of course. You will find the many knowledgable members of JREF (far more knowledgable than me!) are quick to provide answers to genuine questions. Andrew

Thanks, Andrew. I keep an eye to the other threads, too
- to get a better picture who´s knowledgable in here. Hard
to differ right now.
 
Either you haven't been paying attention or you deliberately misconstrued what I wrote. What I said is that there is nothing new in the "press for truth" video (other than the additions of the more recent human interest bits), that it all appears to be based on old news, and that it's odd that its main premise is that the news has not been reported by the media even while it cites the very same media as its sources.

Did you not understand my post or are you deliberately trying to be a jerk with your unresponsive response and your wholly inappropriate grinning smiley face?

:D (Quote this too, please: ("He's just another phony."))
 
I'm afraid there is a language problem here. There are some Quebecois posters, and a few others from continental Europe.

Oliver, what are you saying? Please spell it out for us, or you could start your own thread for non-English speakers. I don't think there is any rule against that, but be sure to double-check that.
 
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