Post-revolution polls in Egypt

Would the growth be faster or slower without the corruption?

No useful data on that.

You might be able to improve an economy without addressing corruption, but it's possible to carry water in a leaky bucket too. It's just a lot easier, and a lot more rewarding for your efforts, if you fix the bucket first.

Interesting argument. The problem is it can also be used to justify wars to gain acess to the sea (which is bangladesh's real advantage). Thing is all those countries that are commonly cited as being held back by corruption have other serious issues.
 
And what does that have to do with "culture"?

The Soviet Union accomplished far more things that the world took notice of than Greece did during the same period. That means you think the "culture" of the USSR was far superior to that of the cradle of Western democracy, right?

Half the women in Egypt can't read.
 
Half the women in Egypt can't read.
Data from Bosnia-Herzegovina Demographics Profile
Muslim 40%, Orthodox 31%, Roman Catholic 15%, other 14%

Literacy definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 96.7%
male: 99%
female: 94.4% (2000 est.)
 
The need the same things that any other country needs to prosper. The Rule of law, property rights, transparency, economic freedom. But institutions don't fall from the sky. They are expressions of the larger culture.

Said institutions also sometimes are corrupted, ala "rule of law" and "transparency" in the current US administration.

They need more people who think like Western people to pull that off. Even then it's hard because of the centrality of violence in Arab political culture which chews liberal-minded people up and spits them out.

Oh. Non-Western democracy states need to be brought around to Westernism.

Do you think if Egypt democratically votes wrong, we should intervene to give them more Western ideals? Needless to say I guess you think democracy is a failure...in for example the 2006 Palestinian elections.

Perhaps they can one day produce a reform-minded autocrat to carry out this transition like an Arab Kemal Ataturk.

Perhaps so. If they keep up their democracy-ness, perhaps they should be allowed to, without any outside intervention...even if the Brotherhood gains power, yet still carries out free elections...
 
Said institutions also sometimes are corrupted, ala "rule of law" and "transparency" in the current US administration.

Corruption in the US compared to places like Egypt isn't even in the same ballpark.

Oh. Non-Western democracy states need to be brought around to Westernism.

Do you think if Egypt democratically votes wrong, we should intervene to give them more Western ideals? Needless to say I guess you think democracy is a failure...in for example the 2006 Palestinian elections.


Perhaps so. If they keep up their democracy-ness, perhaps they should be allowed to, without any outside intervention...even if the Brotherhood gains power, yet still carries out free elections...

Whatever. I'm not going to argue positions you invent for me. You can just talk to yourself if you want to do that.
 
Last edited:
Half the women in Egypt can't read.

Yes, the 30-year reign of your boy Mubarak was really great for the people of Egypt, wasn't it?

Oh, and the female literacy rate of Kuwait is 91%. What, in your view, are the essential differences between Egyptian and Kuwaiti "culture" which would explain this 30% difference, Virus?
 
Last edited:
Name a single accomplishment of Egypt that the rest of the world took notice of.

Christ! Are you even trying to be taken seriously?

Now, with apologies to other Australians here I'd like to tell a little anecdote where I asked an Australian, mostly in jest, what Australia had ever given the world. His answer was, seriously, the clothes line! When I let on that I thought he was joking he became very irate and insisted that the Australians did too invent the clothes line!

I just say this because Virus likes to make assertions about the relatvie merits of cultures by picking say, Beethoven, against "tribal drumming" and assuming that that is all that needs to be said.
 
Yes, the 30-year reign of your boy Mubarak was really great for the people of Egypt, wasn't it?

Do you dislike reform-minded Attaturkian autocrats? Everyone knows that what the Arab world needs is a strong man to impose modernity on those unwashed peasants such as Nasser, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, Mubarak etc...

While it might be foolish to think that the Arab Spring is necessarily going to bring in good changes, I am utterly confused about what some of the commentators who bemoan the end of Mubarak actually want! What they say they want seems to be belied by how they act. How could that be?

Oh, because they are liars.
 
Do you dislike reform-minded Attaturkian autocrats? Everyone knows that what the Arab world needs is a strong man to impose modernity on those unwashed peasants such as Nasser, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, Mubarak etc...

When I looked up literacy stats, I noticed that a higher percentage of women in Wahhabist-dominated Saudi Arabia are literate than in Mubarak's Western-allied Islamist-suppressing Egypt (70.8% to 59.4%).

Saudi Arabia!

While it might be foolish to think that the Arab Spring is necessarily going to bring in good changes, I am utterly confused about what some of the commentators who bemoan the end of Mubarak actually want!

I've noticed that the people who are most fond of proclaiming the superiority of their own culture (especially on internet message forums) are never those who have actually contributed anything to said culture. Instead, they "mistake being born on third base for hitting a triple", enjoying what other people have built for them long before they were born and then having the gall to take credit for what they enjoy simply because they were lucky enough to have been born to the right parents and in the right place.

Egyptians are trying to do a very difficult thing right now: build an actual functioning, governing democracy from scratch, in a country that has never really had such a thing before and in the face of sociohistorical and religious forces pushing back against the very notion of such a thing, and which sadly make their chances of success dim at best.

But they are far, far better people for striving anyway, for fighting to build something even in the face of almost certain failure, than are the kind of people who do the cultural supremacist equivalent of bragging incessantly about what awesome drivers they are from the back seat of someone else's car.
 
Last edited:
When I looked up literacy stats, I noticed that a higher percentage of women in Wahhabist-dominated Saudi Arabia are literate than in Mubarak's Western-allied Islamist-suppressing Egypt (70.8% to 59.4%).

Saudi Arabia!



I've noticed that the people who are most fond of proclaiming the superiority of their own culture (especially on internet message forums) are never those who have actually contributed anything to said culture. Instead, they "mistake being born on third base for hitting a triple", enjoying what other people have built for them long before they were born and then having the gall to take credit for what they enjoy simply because they were lucky enough to have been born to the right parents and in the right place.

Egyptians are trying to do a very difficult thing right now: build an actual functioning, governing democracy from scratch, in a country that has never really had such a thing before and in the face of sociohistorical and religious forces pushing back against the very notion of such a thing, and which sadly make their chances of success dim at best.

But they are far, far better people for striving anyway, for fighting to build something even in the face of almost certain failure, than are the kind of people who do the cultural supremacist equivalent of bragging incessantly about what awesome drivers they are from the back seat of someone else's car.

ANTPogo, just in case you think we're at cross-purposes here, I just want to say I agree with you completely. I think it is sometimes comical to listen to the idiot blow-hard laptop bombadiers from Brisbane wanking on, in semi-literate fashion, about their cultural superiority. But what many of these cretins don't even have to care about is the fact that real people are getting caught up in these momentous events. Many of these people are doing seriously brave things or simply things to look after their families while aforementioned idiot blowhard laptop bombadiers are dismissing them as worthless human beings without ever having heard from them or knowing anything about them at all.
 
Last edited:
ANTPogo, just in case you think we're at cross-purposes here, I just want to say I agree with you completely. I think it is sometimes comical to listen to the idiot blow-hard laptop bombadiers from Brisbane wanking on, in semi-literate fashion, about their cultural superiority. But what many of these cretins don't even have to care about is the fact that real people are getting caught up in these momentous events. Many of these people are doing seriously brave things or simply things to look after their families while aforementioned idiot blowhard laptop bombadiers are dismissing them as worthless human beings without ever having heard from them or knowing anything about them at all.

All this because Professor Cultural Sensitivity couldn't name an Egyptian innovation.

That's funny.
 
All this because Professor Cultural Sensitivity couldn't name an Egyptian innovation.

That's funny.
I don't think people were taking that challenge too seriously. Egypt had a literate civilisation thousands of years before the "West" attained such a thing. Nor does this indicate that Egyptians are wiser or more foolish, or better or worse, than West Europeans.
 
Last edited:
All this because Professor Cultural Sensitivity couldn't name an Egyptian innovation.

That's funny.

I'm still waiting for you to explain the relevance of innovations produced by members of a culture to the overall "worth" of that culture.

And if innovations determine cultural superiority, which culture do you think is superior - the one that invented the Splayd, or the one that put the first artificial satellite into orbit?
 
I'm still waiting for you to explain the relevance of innovations produced by members of a culture to the overall "worth" of that culture.

You want to know why advanced civilizations and more dynamic and innovative than primitive ones?
 
You want to know why advanced civilizations and more dynamic and innovative than primitive ones?

It's okay. I can understand why you, as an Australian, are upset and jealous and feeling insecure when faced with how much worse your culture is than the far superior Soviet culture.
 

Back
Top Bottom