POSITIVE EVIDENCE for WTC7 Controlled Demolition

It seems a good analogy for the thermite argument would be:
A man is stuck and killed by a car.

This man in Boston has a car so he's guilty.







That's it...................................Steven Jones in a nut shell.



ETA OK I'll give him more credit,....................The cars a Ford.
 
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I thought He was revising the theories to support his evidence to prevent the theories falsification.

I believe he proposed thermite because he knew that explosives do not survive fires over 250c, and no explosive known cuts steel in the way seen in the pictures from 9/11/2001.

However what do I know I am just the person working hard, blowing myself up from time to time to find the truth, why would I know anything about it?

CC are in contact with Jones at all?
 
Fourth time, Sizzler: please give a specific example of thermate that does not include barium, or withdraw your criticism of Ryan Mackey. Do not make me ask again.
 
Fourth time, Sizzler: please give a specific example of thermate that does not include barium, or withdraw your criticism of Ryan Mackey. Do not make me ask again.

I was curious if he had been responsive to your request. I'm not surprised that he hasn't. Maybe he will this time though. It'd look kinda bad if you had to ask a fifth time. I'd begin to think he was purposely avoiding it.

:)
 
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I read somewhere that Jowenko has retracted his WTC 7 CD opinion. Is that true?
 
My wikipedia trumps your reality, Gwavy! Bfah! Take that!

It can be fun to read the wikipedia discussions regarding additions/changes made to topics. You learn very quickly not to put much faith into it without some additional research.
 
CC are in contact with Jones at all?


Dr. Jones is the reason I got into this and I have had limited contact with him, I read his article in nature as well as other papers he published.
I once had a lot of respect for him, I am sorry to say that has greatly changed, as I have looked into this.
I wanted to give up on experimentation and research into Sept, 11 however a little bird talked me into continuing the experiments.
I have done hundreds of flawed experiments to produce sulfur and iron rich low oxygen micro spheres though reduction with carbon, only to produce pyrite Crystals in abundance.
It seems that when the Fe 3O4 is reduced in the presence of sulfur that fes is always created in Crystal form if the s is sufficient to create the large peaks seen in the data.
 
First and foremost, this is not my hypothesis. If it were, I would have gone about supporting it in a much different way.

You're promoting the thermite/ate/öte hypothesis to the exclusion of others, therefore it is your theory. You don't have to be its inventor.

Secondly, you made a fallacy in determining what evidence is and isn't.

Actually, no. Since you're apparently new to logical fallacies, I'll help you understand where you made your mistakes.

Sulfur is not evidence of thermate because other explanations for sulfur are legion. The fallacy is actually yours, and it's called "Affirming the Consequent." The fallacy goes like this:
Proposed: If there was a dragon in my garage, there would be no room for a car.
Fact: There is no room in my garage for a car.
Assertion: Therefore, there must be a dragon in my garage.​
There is, of course, no dragon in my garage. It's just messy.

Other causes of the sulfur cannot be ruled out, and indeed they haven't been. There are lots of them. They are also far more likely than therma/i/öte, as I explained before. So, again, this is not evidence. It isn't me arbitrarily deciding this.

For your next fallacy: What you think is evidence is presented as a kind of Fallacy of necessity, or in other words, asserting as absolutely true things that you merely suspect, without basis:

Again, thermate like residue, and microsperes would be expected in a thermate reaction.

"Thermate-like residue?" You've asserted the residue is "thermate-like" on the basis of there being sulfur. In every other way, the residue is not "thermate-like." Like I said before, the heat of thermate would have totally destroyed the eutectic. That's the definition of the eutectic. It would be the first thing to melt. It survived.

And as for the "microsp[h]eres," same deal. You pulled that one out of a hat. Show me an experiment that says microspheres are characteristic of thermi/a/öte, and not from magnetic ink on financial documents, friction of impact, or ordinary fires. You can't.

Therefore, what you have is not evidence. It doesn't support your hypothesis, and it doesn't weaken everyone else's. Not Evidence. End of story.

You even admit this, with a qualifier:

This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).
(Emphasis added)

Ah, but is that true? Why, no, that's not true either. Eutectics in steel are familiar, just unusual in office building fires. Hence why Dr. Biederman came up with a host of possible explanations, none of which involved thermi/a/öte.

You made that up too.

Your third fallacy is a classic:

On a different note;

You are a NASA Engineer and I am nothing of the sort. I expect you to know more about these things than I, especially considering your high debunking status.

This is called an Argumentum ad hominem, cloaked in Appeal to Authority. As it happens, I am a NASA scientist. And I know more about these things than you. However, the two have nothing to do with each other. Nor have I ever claimed that, solely on the basis of my credentials, what I say is true. What I say is true because it can be verified, not because of my role as a scientist. Scientists make mistakes too.

However you have misled me more than once on this thread about thermate.

1. You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used

Actually, this is false. Thermate is a specific compound. You can make a custom blend of thermite that includes sulfur and no barium nitrate, of course, or one that uses zinc or mercury or whatever you want. That's not thermate. It also doesn't matter -- none of the other symptoms of thermite, no matter what the composition, are there. I already explained this to you, oh, at least twice.

Your response to this was to quote Wikipedia at me. That's an Appeal to false authority. Wikipedia is a reasonable place to start, and I use it myself, but you need to verify it. Especially its entry on thermate. Here's a hint: When the revision history of a given page has over 50 edits, including repeated acts of vandalism by morons in the Truth Movement, you need to find a better source of information.

2. You also said the by products of a thermate reaction could not cause sulfidation.--->this is not true considering a by-product is SO2.

That's actually a lie. Nowhere did I say that the chemical form of thermate-combusted sulfur would prevent sulfidation. I just checked to be absolutely sure. What I said is that the sulfur would not have escaped, leaving sulfidation without the other signs of a thermite reaction, and that you cannot have sulfur from thermite without the heat of thermite. Those two ingredients will never form a eutectic that melts at 950oC. That's what I said. If you bother extracting the sulfur from a hypothetical barium-less sulfur-laden thermite reaction, it will act just like any other sulfur will... but clearly that didn't happen.

Since you are a NASA engineer and have high debunking status, these simple mistakes cannot be forgiven and give me no choice but to be skeptical of your "no evidence" claim.

Again, Argumentum ad hominem. And I already know you're looking for excuses to disregard what I say.

I really don't care. The one needing education is you -- I have nothing to lose but my temper.

So far, you are proving to be quite a disappointment. Please try harder.
 
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It was really cynical of me to suspect that Sizzler was a twoofer. I don't know--I guess I'm just a nasty guy.
 
Mackey wrote:
You're promoting the thermite/ate/öte hypothesis to the exclusion of others, therefore it is your theory. You don't have to be its inventor.

Does that mean The Theory of Evolution is mine?
Does that mean The Theory of Relativity is mine?
:rolleyes:

Mackey wrote:
Actually, no. Since you're apparently new to logical fallacies, I'll help you understand where you made your mistakes.

Sulfur is not evidence of thermate because other explanations for sulfur are legion. The fallacy is actually yours, and it's called "Affirming the Consequent." The fallacy goes like this:

Proposed: If there was a dragon in my garage, there would be no room for a car.
Fact: There is no room in my garage for a car.
Assertion: Therefore, there must be a dragon in my garage.

There is, of course, no dragon in my garage. It's just messy.

Others have pushed this logical fallacy around and it just isn't accurate.

Your above analogy would apply to this:

Proposed:Therm?te would cause WTC to fall.
Fact:Building fell
Assertion: Therefore, therm?te must have been in the building.

The above, does not apply to any assertions made by Jones or myself in this thread.

A tweaked version of your example is more accurate.

Proposed:If there was a dragon in my garage, there would be no room for a car.
Fact: There WAS no room in your garage yesterday, and although there is room today, there is also something resembling dragon dung in the middle of your garage.
Assertion: A dragon MAY have been in your garage yesterday.

The above of course, is not a fallacy considering the dung and the use of MAY not "therefore".

To continue, you also have a large dog who enjoys going to the bathroom in your garage. So is the dung from your dog, or possibly a dragon? Further research would tell.

So it seems that although your example is an example of a logical fallacy, it does not represent anything I asserted in this thread. If you are going to use analogies, at least attempt to make them accurate.:rolleyes:

In response to this:

I wrote:
This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).

You wrote:

Ah, but is that true? Why, no, that's not true either. Eutectics in steel are familiar, just unusual in office building fires. Hence why Dr. Biederman came up with a host of possible explanations, none of which involved thermi/a/öte.
You made that up too.

Now you are are lying. There are no lab tests confirming the source of sulfur for WTC collapses. Why lie?

I quote from Greening:
By way of verifying these conclusions it is suggested that the NIST fire tests, which were conducted on simple office module simulations, should be repeated using more realistic environments that include shredded aluminum alloy 2024, crushed concrete and gypsum, water, rusted steel, aviation fuel, plastics, etc. In this way better estimates of the rates of production of SO2 and the degree of sulfidation of steel could be established.

Show me one journal article that actually establishes a source of the sulfur VIA lab experimentation.


Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
2. You also said the by products of a thermate reaction could not cause sulfidation.--->this is not true considering a by-product is SO2.

You replied

That's actually a lie. Nowhere did I say that the chemical form of thermate-combusted sulfur would prevent sulfidation. I just checked to be absolutely sure. What I said is that the sulfur would not have escaped, leaving sulfidation without the other signs of a thermite reaction, and that you cannot have sulfur from thermite without the heat of thermite. Those two ingredients will never form a eutectic that melts at 950oC. That's what I said. If you bother extracting the sulfur from a hypothetical barium-less sulfur-laden thermite reaction, it will act just like any other sulfur will... but clearly that didn't happen.

Nice revisionism. Lets see how this progressed shall we.

I wrote:
Until I see this report, acid rain, batteries, fuel, gypsum, office materials, and thermate all remain possible sources.

You wrote:
Um, no. Thermate is not a valid source.
CC wrote:
the sulfur in thermite is usually oxidized out to SO2.
I further wrote:
So it seems SO2 is a by-product.

So my original point stands. Thermate is a possible source of sulfur for sulfidation of steel.

You chose not to respond to that. You explicitly said, and I quote:
"
Um, no. Thermate is not a valid source.
"

Your above statement is FALSE

My point stands.
You wrote:
Actually, this is false. Thermate is a specific compound. You can make a custom blend of thermite that includes sulfur and no barium nitrate, of course, or one that uses zinc or mercury or whatever you want. That's not thermate. It also doesn't matter -- none of the other symptoms of thermite, no matter what the composition, are there. I already explained this to you, oh, at least twice.

I retract past comments about this. You were very precise with your use of thermate and thermite. I was not. I apologize.
Finally you wrote:
The one needing education is you -- I have nothing to lose but my temper.

You've actually gotten this backwards.

Official hypothesis=current champion
Alternative hypothesis=underdog (and at the moment by a long shot)

So again, who has everything to lose? And, who has nothing to lose?
 
Rational people can only lose patience.

'Truthers' can lose their faith and, in some cases, their livelihood.

Rational people don't lose faith? Rational people don't lose their livelihood?

Gimme a break. What side of the world are you living on?

Lets take Katrina for example. I'm sure a lot of rational people lost both their faith (in their government) and their livelihood.
 
I will never lose my faith in 'truthers' attempts to spin any given analogy to make it seem as if they are acting rationally.
 
I will never lose my faith in 'truthers' attempts to spin any given analogy to make it seem as if they are acting rationally.

I will never lose faith in OCT supporters ability to use a wide variety of propaganda techniques to make themselves seem rational and "the others" irrational.
 
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no, propaganda techiniques are what Alex Jones, Stephen Jones, and Jim Fetzer use to convince you to question the official report, on aspects that doesn't exist in the reports.

have you EVEN READ teh NISt report yet?
 
no, propaganda techiniques are what Alex Jones, Stephen Jones, and Jim Fetzer use to convince you to question the official report, on aspects that doesn't exist in the reports.

have you EVEN READ teh NISt report yet?

Yes I have (not all 10, 000 pages but I have read the summary version). I'd like to see the their computer model though. Don't you think it is kinda funny that they haven't made it public?
 
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Sizzler, please return when you have read the entire report (it seems that you didn't get the gist from the SUMMARY version)

all your questiosn are ADDRESSED in the report. you unending circle jerk of questions have been addressed in VERY old threads on this very forum. USE the search button.

NO, I dont think it odd that they didn't release their computer models. Does the NTSB release the plane when they've done investigating a crash?
Does the coroner release the body to the public, when he's done examining for cause of death?

Do you have a trillion dollar computer that could RUN the models (which probably use proprietary software worth more than what you earn in a year)? Please read the nist report, they explain why the models were done, and how mcuh could be accomplished by computer modeling
 
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