POSITIVE EVIDENCE for WTC7 Controlled Demolition

I don't mind. All I can do is try to answer the questions as accurately and as understandably as I can. This stuff's not easy to grasp in any intuitive way.

What the questioner does with the information, I have no control over.

Sizzler asks reasonable questions, and appears to pay attention to the answers. That's appropriate participation on an educational forum.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I agree with Myriad. Sizzler does not go off on ad homs they way many truthers do so it would be simple courtesy to do the same when speaking to him. I am willing to and would encourage others to also lay off ad homs.

Many here are not religious but the Bible did get a few things right, as in ; "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (, as opposed to the "do unto others first", OR "do unto others as you perceive they have done unto you")
 
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CrazyChainsaw has you pretty well covered, but since you addressed me...

You're not bringing us anything new. You're still simply looking for excuses to prop up your belief in thermite. There is no evidence for thermite.

The newsletter you linked falls well below the standard of a scientific journal. However, even so, you cherry-picked it:

(Source) (Emphasis added)

They're talking about quantities of thermite used to ignite residential structures, not cut steel beams or pillars. There is no "slag" created. Much less thermite is involved.

The telltale signs of thermite are three:
  1. When burned, thermite creates a dazzling, brilliant fountain of light and sparks, enough to be seen at a great distance. It is remotely possible this was contained behind interior walls or obscured by smoke in the WTC 7 case, so we'll give this one a pass, but you cannot suppose thermite at the perimeter in any structure for this reason alone.
  2. Thermite leaves behind a white powdery residue of metal oxides, and this will survive virtually any heating. It's quite characteristic. That's one of the "burn patterns" they're talking about above. None was found. No thermite.
  3. Thermite also creates, as a product of its function, melted iron. In the quantities needed to even weaken a single significant member of any WTC structure, it must have left a blob or ingot of iron or iron slag. This slag would survive the debris fire afterward, and thus would have been recovered in cleanup. None have been found. No thermite.

Additionally, the "weird" elements listed above are because the arsonists are using homemade thermite. They can't get hold of reagent-quality aluminum or iron oxide, but instead file down bent automobile wheels and rusty pipes. This is not what we expect in the mythical WTC 7 thermite case, unless you expect me to believe the NWO hired a batallion of amateur arsonists to homebrew a few truckloads of ghetto thermite. Not likely. More likely, the NWO would use pure iron oxide and aluminum, which leave no "unusual" chemicals at all. Why give themselves away by adding relatively exotic metals? There's no point.



We don't. No ironworker indicated anything unusual. Dr. Jones's EDX results, as explained here endlessly by Dr. Greening and others, appear to be incorrect. Dr. Jones has not published his results or done anything else that would permit verification.

Likewise, studies of the smoke plume, dust, and debris found nothing unusual at all.

There is no evidence of thermite. What you've brought us isn't evidence of thermite, and also isn't interpreted properly.

Find a new hypothesis.

First and foremost, this is not my hypothesis. If it were, I would have gone about supporting it in a much different way.

Secondly, you made a fallacy in determining what evidence is and isn't.

For example; the police enter a crime scene at a store. A shooting is reported. However, there is no gun, no bullet casings and no bullet hole. However one of the suspects has traces of gunpowder on his right wrist that is consistent with firing a gun. The problem is, the store sells and makes fireworks. Thus, there are exact chemicals present in the entire store.

The man denies being the shooter. When the traces of gun powder are presented to him, he says there is loads of gun powder all over the building.

Would the police dismiss the gun powder on his right wrist as evidence that he was the shooter? Of course not.

They would consider it partial/incomplete/unconfirmed evidence and try to rule out other causes. If the other causes could not be ruled out, it would then NOT be evidence.

Again, thermate like residue, and microsperes would be expected in a thermate reaction.

This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).

From a debunkers point of view, the burdon of proof in on the CT and thus, no complete/direct/hard evidence exists.

From the point of view of a skeptic, signs of thermate use are reported, but at the moment inconclusive. But, just because the evidence is inconclusive, it doesn't mean NO evidence exists (as demonstrated with the example above-->partial/incomplete evidence can have merit)

On a different note;

You are a NASA Engineer and I am nothing of the sort. I expect you to know more about these things than I, especially considering your high debunking status.

However you have misled me more than once on this thread about thermate.

1. You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used

2. You also said the by products of a thermate reaction could not cause sulfidation.--->this is not true considering a by-product is SO2.

Since you are a NASA engineer and have high debunking status, these simple mistakes cannot be forgiven and give me no choice but to be skeptical of your "no evidence" claim.

I think you pulled similar reasoning with DRG in your debunking of his book; debunking 911 debunking. So please don't take it personally.
 
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This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).
For the hundredth time:

Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC dust. These products are:

• Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents
• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials

...In addition to the spherical iron and aluminosilicate particles, a variety of heavy metal particles including lead, cadmium, vanadium, yttrium, arsenic, bismuth, and barium particles were produced by the pulverizing, melting and/or combustion of the host materials such as solder, computer screens, and paint during the WTC Event. Source (PDF)

On what did you base your statement that, "And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report)." Did you do a journal search or speak to metallurgists and combustion experts?
 
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For the hundredth time:



On what did you base your statement that, "And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report)." Did you do a journal search or speak to metallurgists and combustion experts?

The iron came from building components. No lab tests showed how, and reproduced it.

Again save your burdon of proof argument because I get it. The truth movement should do such lab tests.

How does this disprove thermate?
 
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You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used
When is barium not a component of thermate?
 
The iron came from building components.

How does this disprove thermate?
Your claim was that no "natural" source for such particles has been found. I provided you with one.

Second time: on what did you base your assessment?
 
Sizzler can you just post the remaining questions you have that will satisfy you that the World Trade Center was not bombed by George W. Bush?

I suspect the list will look a lot like this:

. . . but I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong. And thanks. Thanks in advance. You've helped me out a lot.
 
Your claim was that no "natural" source for such particles has been found. I provided you with one.

Second time: on what did you base your assessment?

The source of iron rich microspheres via a thermate reaction would have come from the building too. ie, the micropheres would have contained iron from the steel members.

So simply finding microsperes, and saying it must come from iron rich content of the building, is a no brainer.

Iron rich content of the building, includes the steel members.
 
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The source of iron rich microspheres via a thermate reaction would have come from the building too.
When did I say I had disproved the presence of thermate? I was responding to your statement that no natural source for the iron microspheres has been found.

Third time: on what did you base that assessment? Journal searches, correspondence with experts in relevant fields, etc.? I'm trying to understand your thought process.
 
When did I say I had disproved the presence of thermate? I was responding to your statement that no natural source for the iron microspheres has been found.

Third time: on what did you base that assessment? Journal searches, correspondence with experts in relevant fields, etc.? I'm trying to understand your thought process.

Gravy you are not trying to understand my thought process.

You are playing with my words.

Have a nice day.
 
I asked you when barium is not a component of thermate, not for a Wikipedia link stating that barium is sometimes used.

Thermate-TH3 is a specific product, usually containing 29% barium.

Please provide a specific example of thermate that does not use barium.

I'm not familar with all the thermate brands.

Are you suggesting wiki is totally wrong?
 
Gravy you are not trying to understand my thought process.

You are playing with my words.

Have a nice day.
Let's examine that.

1) You stated that no natural source of the microspheres is known.

2) I provided you with contrary information and asked you how you arrived at that assessment.

3) You stated that microspheres could also come from thermate.

4) I replied that I was answering your claim, and again asked that you provide a source for it.

5) You again stated that the presence of irom microspheres naturally doesn't disprove thermate, something that I never claimed. I again asked you how you arrived at your assessment.

6) You then attributed to me a statement I never made or implied: " So simply finding microsperes, and saying it must come from iron rich content of the building..."

Is there anything unreasonable in my behavior? You said the burden of proof of thermate is on the conspiracists. That is correct. You now also know that there is a natural source for the particles.

Have I done something wrong? If so, what?
 
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I'm not familar with all the thermate brands.

Are you suggesting wiki is totally wrong?
A reminder. One of your criticisms of Ryan Mackey was this:

"You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used"

I asked you to provide an example of thermate that doesn't use barium. It is apparent that you cannot. You should therefore withdraw your too-hasty criticism. These are the basics, Sizzler. No need to make a big fuss over them. Just learn to do your homework. When you find thermate that doesn't use barium, you can reestablish your criticism. Until then, you have not proven your claim.
 
Let's examine that.

1) You stated that no natural source of the microspheres is known.

2) I provided you with contrary information and asked you how you arrived at that assessment.

3) You stated that microspheres could also come from thermate.

4) I replied that I was answering your claim, and again asked that you provide a source for it.

5) You again stated that the presence of irom microspheres naturally doesn't disprove thermate, something that I never claimed. I again asked you how you arrived at your assessment.

Is there anything unreasonable in my behavior? You said the burden of proof of thermate is on the conspiracists. That is correct. You now also know that there is a natural source for the particles.

Have I done something wrong? If so, what?

1. Microspheres came from the building contents rich in iron-->correct.

2. How did the iron spheres liberate themselve from the iron rich content (steel members, etc, etc)? That is unknown via lab tests. Thermate is one option.

What is so hard to understand?
 
A reminder. One of your criticisms of Ryan Mackey was this:

"You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used"

I asked you to provide an example of thermate that doesn't use barium. It is apparent that you cannot. You should therefore withdraw your too-hasty criticism. These are the basics, Sizzler. No need to make a big fuss over them. Just learn to do your homework. When you find thermate that doesn't use barium, you can reestablish your criticism. Until then, you have not proven your claim.

I won't withdraw anything. My wiki quote is enough.
 
I won't withdraw anything. My wiki quote is enough.
That's prime Stundie material.

I ask again: do you know of any case in which thermate does not use a substantial percentage of barium? If so, present it. If not, withdraw your criticism of Ryan Mackey.

These are the basics of rational thought and behavior, Sizzler. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalala" will not advance your argument here.
 
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That's prime Stundie material.

I ask again: do you know of any case in which thermate does not use a substantial percentage of barium? If so, present it. If not, withdraw your criticism of Ryan Mackey.

These are the basics of rational thought and behavior, Sizzler. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalala" will not advance your argument here.


CC wrote previously;

There is no standard mix, Thermate is a chemical that can be tailored to the specific job, so it depends on what the thermate is used for.

You know very well that thermate can have different ingredients and be tailored, as does CC.


thermite + sulfur + barium = thermate

thermite + sulfur = thermate, or, thermite + sulfur

Either way, we all know barium IS NOT a required chemical in ALL forms of therm?te.

Nonetheless, you got me thinking. So you get a thanks too gravy.

Barium nitrate mixed with aluminum powder, a formula for flash powder, is highly explosive. It is mixed with Thermite to form Thermate-TH3, used in military thermite grenades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_nitrate

It seems to me that the addition of barium nitrate would lower the ignition temperature, and cause some sort of extra thermal energy. perhaps the reaction would be a bit more explosive with barium nitrate.

It has been suggested, that therm?te without barium nitrate would be "boring". Well, wouldnt that be a good idea if you were trying to hide the fact that therm?te was weakening the steel?

In addition, it would mean one less chemical signiture left behind.

So why add sulfur then? Well, sulfur would lower the melting point of steel and allow the thermite to do its job quicker.


We know thermite+sulfur would get the job done anyway. barium nitrate would not be necessary as long as the therm?te could be ignited. Why would they want a flashy show anyway and another chemical left behind?

At any rate, if Jones had simply called it "thermite sulfur mixture" instead of "thermate", your point would cease to exist.

Are semantics really that important to you?
 
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Gravy. This how you played on my words.

i previously wrote:

This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).

And you replied later on;

Let's examine that.

1) You stated that no natural source of the microspheres is known.

So you misquoted me.

Would you like to retract that mistake Gravy?
 
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