POSITIVE EVIDENCE for WTC7 Controlled Demolition

This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet...
You stated that no natural source of the microspheres is known.
Gravy. This how you played on my words... So you misquoted me.


It might be worth bearing in mind that Gravy didn’t quote you at all. Rather, he merely described what you had said. Further, would seem difficult to argue that said description is appreciably inaccurate.
 
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It might be worth bearing in mind that Gravy didn’t quote you at all. Rather, he merely described what you had said. Further, would seem difficult to argue that said description is appreciably inaccurate.

sorry...he indirectly misquoted me. Isn't the result the same?

And, "source" and "cause" are completely different in this context.

The source of the iron for microspheres would of course come from the buildings iron containing contents. that, for the second time said, is a no brainer.

The cause of iron microspheres liberating themselves from iron containing contents is a whole different story.
 
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No, we are trying to get you to think something through before you fling your fingers at the keyboard with what you think is a snappy answer.

Here's a suggestion: when you get a posting asking or telling you something, read it 3 times aloud to make sure you hear as well as see it. (Many people learn better from hearing than reading.) Step back and read it again. Then do at least a little research -- and not Wikipedia for technical topics! There are plenty of reliable online and print sources. Go to your local library; or even visit your local library web site from home. Many, perhaps most or all states now have vast electronic resources with information ranging from general to esoteric on state contracts available through library networks.

I damned well should know. I am responsible for seeing that tons of money get spent precisely for this purpose.
 
No, we are trying to get you to think something through before you fling your fingers at the keyboard with what you think is a snappy answer.

Here's a suggestion: when you get a posting asking or telling you something, read it 3 times aloud to make sure you hear as well as see it. (Many people learn better from hearing than reading.) Step back and read it again. Then do at least a little research -- and not Wikipedia for technical topics! There are plenty of reliable online and print sources. Go to your local library; or even visit your local library web site from home. Many, perhaps most or all states now have vast electronic resources with information ranging from general to esoteric on state contracts available through library networks.

I damned well should know. I am responsible for seeing that tons of money get spent precisely for this purpose.

Thanks, I would have caught Gravy's misquote much quicker following your suggestions.

That would have saved me a few minutes. I'll take your advice.
 
First and foremost, this is not my hypothesis. If it were, I would have gone about supporting it in a much different way.

Secondly, you made a fallacy in determining what evidence is and isn't.

For example; the police enter a crime scene at a store. A shooting is reported. However, there is no gun, no bullet casings and no bullet hole. However one of the suspects has traces of gunpowder on his right wrist that is consistent with firing a gun. The problem is, the store sells and makes fireworks. Thus, there are exact chemicals present in the entire store.

The man denies being the shooter. When the traces of gun powder are presented to him, he says there is loads of gun powder all over the building.

Would the police dismiss the gun powder on his right wrist as evidence that he was the shooter? Of course not.

They would have to if it was from the fire works unless he used a black powder pistol.
Nitro cellulose powder smokeless gun powder, and black powder in the fire works would have a totally different chemical makeup.
If it was black powder it most likely came from contamination with the fireworks. If it was smokeless powder it would have came from modern ammunition.


They would consider it partial/incomplete/unconfirmed evidence and try to rule out other causes. If the other causes could not be ruled out, it would then NOT be evidence.

Again, thermate like residue, and microsperes would be expected in a thermate reaction.

They are Also expected in the World Trade Center Collapses, there are even manufactured micro spheres in the buildings as well as the ones that would have occurred in the fires I have made thousands of micro spheres nothing unusual at all about them at all the kindling temperature of steel is 980c.
Magnetite spheres begin forming at 700c in certian conditions.


Ironbubble2.JPG


This evidence, at the moment, remains inconclusive because natural causes have not been ruled out yet (truth movements job to do it). And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).

Oh I would say that will not be long in coming after all it is just simple chemistry really you should read up on welding and cutting steel using steel as the fuel with oxygen.

From a debunkers point of view, the burdon of proof in on the CT and thus, no complete/direct/hard evidence exists.

From the point of view of a skeptic, signs of thermate use are reported, but at the moment inconclusive. But, just because the evidence is inconclusive, it doesn't mean NO evidence exists (as demonstrated with the example above-->partial/incomplete evidence can have merit)

On a different note;

You are a NASA Engineer and I am nothing of the sort. I expect you to know more about these things than I, especially considering your high debunking status.

However you have misled me more than once on this thread about thermate.

1. You said barium nitrate was not reported and therefore disproves Thermate--->this is untrue becuase barium nitrate is not always used

That comment of R.Mackey's, was in reference to Jones stating military grade thermate in his paper, Barium nitrate is used in most military grade preprepared thermates.

Barium would be in the collapse Chemistry as well it is a common lubricant in grease and car tires.


2. You also said the by products of a thermate reaction could not cause sulfidation.--->this is not true considering a by-product is SO2.

Yes but you would have to entrap the SO2 in a reducing environment with carbon, then produce sulfur, then react the sulfur with the heated steel at a temperature below 520c that is almost impossible to do given the violent behavior of thermate

Since you are a NASA engineer and have high debunking status, these simple mistakes cannot be forgiven and give me no choice but to be skeptical of your "no evidence" claim.

I think you pulled similar reasoning with DRG in your debunking of his book; debunking 911 debunking. So please don't take it personally.

I hope this help in understanding the context of the conversation at hand.
 
..."source" and "cause" are completely different in this context. The source of the iron for microspheres would of course come from the buildings iron containing contents...


I suppose that would depend upon whether he meant “source” in a material or a phenomenological sense.
 
I hope this help in understanding the context of the conversation at hand.

Thanks CC. I really hope you get the chance to publish your experiments.

you wrote:

Yes but you would have to entrap the SO2 in a reducing environment with carbon, then produce sulfur, then react the sulfur with the heated steel at a temperature below 520c that is almost impossible to do given the violent behavior of thermate

Wouldn't these conditions apply to natural occuring SO2 aswell?

Were there any souces of pure S naturally, thus skipping the reduction reaction completely?
 
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Thanks CC. I really hope you get the chance to publish your experiments.

you wrote:



Wouldn't these conditions apply to natural occuring SO2 aswell?

Were there any souces of pure S naturally, thus skipping the reduction reaction completely?

Some what, however think of this thermite-thermate is a quick, fast reaction it does not last long, it would have occurred in the buildings while they were standing. IT would have been very violent and hot, most of the SO2 would have been lost to the atmosphere.

Now in the rubble pile SO2 can be entrapped with carbons and actually in carbonous materials as it peculates upward though the pile. As the entrapped carbons burn the CO2 is reduced to sulfur, which can react with steel much the way that organic iron in wood reacts with sulfur to form pyrites in coals.

The way I formed the pyrites I have is I soaked charcoal in sulfuric acid, buried the charcoal, with small pieces of scrap steel, and then lit the charcoal as the charcoal burned the pyrites were formed in a low temperature reaction.

I did the same thing with Gypsum, there was less pyrite formation with gypsum, than there was with either sulfuric acid or Diesel fuel, however there was pyrite formation with all three, so any source of SO2 that can be reduced to S will work in a low temperature reaction to form pyrites.
 
Some what, however think of this thermite-thermate is a quick, fast reaction it does not last long, it would have occurred in the buildings while they were standing. IT would have been very violent and hot, most of the SO2 would have been lost to the atmosphere.

Now in the rubble pile SO2 can be entrapped with carbons and actually in carbonous materials as it peculates upward though the pile. As the entrapped carbons burn the CO2 is reduced to sulfur, which can react with steel much the way that organic iron in wood reacts with sulfur to form pyrites in coals.

The way I formed the pyrites I have is I soaked charcoal in sulfuric acid, buried the charcoal, with small pieces of scrap steel, and then lit the charcoal as the charcoal burned the pyrites were formed in a low temperature reaction.

I did the same thing with Gypsum, there was less pyrite formation with gypsum, than there was with either sulfuric acid or Diesel fuel, however there was pyrite formation with all three, so any source of SO2 that can be reduced to S will work in a low temperature reaction to form pyrites.

I found this source for temperature to melt pyrite.

1,177–1,188°C
Hurlbut, Cornelius S.; Klein, Cornelis, 1985, Manual of Mineralogy, 20th ed., John Wiley and Sons, New York, p 285-286, ISBN 0-471-80580-7

Is this accurate?
 
If the above temps are true, that would further indicate that sulfidation pre-collapse was unlikely. It would also indicate a rubble (in certain hot spots) temp of slightly above 1000C..right?

I wondering though, is it possible that any therm?te SO2 byproduct was not lost for charges in the basement? Or, perhaps some of the charges did not ignite. In that case after the collapse, free sulfur would be hanging around and the entire reduction process wouldnt be necessary.

If your experiment were to be published, would starting from charcoal be exceptable or would you have to start with more representitive (ie, actual unburnt wood, etc) sources of carbon? Or would that not matter?
 
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I found this source for temperature to melt pyrite.


Hurlbut, Cornelius S.; Klein, Cornelis, 1985, Manual of Mineralogy, 20th ed., John Wiley and Sons, New York, p 285-286, ISBN 0-471-80580-7

Is this accurate?

Yes in a non oxygen environment for mixed pyrites, pyrites mixed with silicon or other elements.
Remember he is speaking of mineral deposits Impure pyrites.

However in an oxygen Atmosphere pyrite gives off SO2 at 520c as it burns to form Fe3O4.

Technical Progress Report for the Period
April 1, 1993 - June 30 1993
Robert C. Brown, M. Robert Dawson, and Shawn D. Noble
#
Iowa State University
Ames, IA 50011

In oxidizing zones, (FeS 2 will tipically
produce SO 2 and form ferric oxide iFe203) at temperatures near 520°C. In reducing zones,
pyrite (FeS 2) forms a partial melt of ferrous sulfide (FeS) beginning at about 280°C and
continuing to about 600°C. Iron oxides may also be reduced to the ferrous state at 540 °C. At
lower temperatures, FeS may react with aluminosilicates to form a relatively low-melting ferrous
 
I've watched this thread go on and on about the possibility of thermite or thermate. I think I've read in other threads, correct me if I'm wrong. Even if there are chemical remnants consistent with thermate, isn't there a problem with using it to effectively weaken a vertical column? How is it secured to the column? It can't just rest on top of it, as it could a horizontal member. And how does it not burn through whatever is securing it faster than it weakens the column, unless the fastening mechanism is more resistant to the heat than the column is?

Thanks.
 
..."source" and "cause" are completely different in this context. The source of the iron for microspheres would of course come from the buildings iron containing contents...
I suppose that would depend upon whether he meant “source” in a material or a phenomenological sense.
Sure. But it is still his mistake...


Well, no. Whether or not he made said mistake would depend upon whether he meant “source” in a material or a phenomenological sense.
 
I've watched this thread go on and on about the possibility of thermite or thermate. I think I've read in other threads, correct me if I'm wrong. Even if there are chemical remnants consistent with thermate, isn't there a problem with using it to effectively weaken a vertical column? How is it secured to the column? It can't just rest on top of it, as it could a horizontal member. And how does it not burn through whatever is securing it faster than it weakens the column, unless the fastening mechanism is more resistant to the heat than the column is?

Steven Jones came across a 2005 patent for a thermite-based device for cutting vertical members, based on a thermite jet issuing from a ceramic nozzle. There are one or two problems with it, though:
(1) It was a 2005 patent, which strongly suggests it didn't exist in 2001.
(2) Even a 2005 patent isn't proof that it actually exists; lots of patents are never reduced to practice, including at least one of mine.
(3) The patent indicated that the device could burn through a 1" bar, and the device was considerably larger than the cross-section of the bar.

So there's no existence theorem for burning through vertical members with thermite, and the one possible candidate would involve the installation of large numbers of large devices throughout the structure. It's not a particularly realistic scenario, to say the least.

Dave
 
If the above temps are true, that would further indicate that sulfidation pre-collapse was unlikely. It would also indicate a rubble (in certain hot spots) temp of slightly above 1000C..right?

1000c are to be expected, in the rubble pile from chemical reactions in the pile including reduction reactions that release heat that is what I have discovered.

I wondering though, is it possible that any therm?te SO2 byproduct was not lost for charges in the basement? Or, perhaps some of the charges did not ignite. In that case after the collapse, free sulfur would be hanging around and the entire reduction process wouldnt be necessary.

Yes it is possible however the Aluminum powder would have likely been converted to Aluminum chloride and oxidized with water, that would have caused heating, releasing SO2 from the sulfur and leaving iron.

Aluminum powder and Iron powder would react strongly to chlorides, in the rubble pile.


It would be likely even that the iron powder would absorb the S, after converstion to iron chloride, by HCl in the rubble pile.

Remember the aluminum, iron oxide sulfur and other compounds are all mixed I would expect further reactions from them in the rubble pile, especially since Aluminum powder compounds can be ignited at 600c temperatures.

If your experiment were to be published, would starting from charcoal be exceptable or would you have to start with more representitive (ie, actual unburnt wood, etc) sources of carbon? Or would that not matter?

Wood actually contains sulfur, so it would not only work but would be a source of sulfur any organic compound would as well as certain sulfur containing hydrocarbon based plastics.

I have been all though this the reaction seems to be a low temperature reaction with any number of possible SO2 containing products in the rubble pile of which the sources are very plentiful.
 
Well, no. Whether or not he made said mistake would depend upon whether he meant “source” in a material or a phenomenological sense.
The "thermite" theory exists for one reason. Dr. Jones realizes (unlike a lot of truthers) that controlled demolition and explosives make a lot of noise. So Jones now needs to keep revising this theory to support his conclusion. Backward to most scientific approaches.
 
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Sulfur is basically a non issue, it is to abundant in the environment of the collapses and to easy to liberate though reduction.

People even smelled it on 9/11/2001, in the buildings most likely from the sulfur in the planes batteries and batteries in the towers.
Remember the statements of Gunpowder-Cordite like smells?
That smell comes from gun cotton used in cordite, which is produced from sulfuric acid.
Burned clorosulfunic plastic has the same smell.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3761544.html

A new class of phosphorus-containing sulfonylhydrazides of the formula: ##SPC1## In addition to a new class of chlorosulfonated phosphorus-containing compounds useful as organic intermediates in the preparation of the hydrazides is described. The phosphorus-containing sulfonylhydrazides are useful as blowing agents for resinous blends.
 
Well, no. Whether or not he made said mistake would depend upon whether he meant “source” in a material or a phenomenological sense.

Lets look at this for a second.

I said: cause

He indirectly quoted me as saying: source

two possibilities exist.

1. he misquoted me.

2. he said source as a synonym to cause (phenomenological sense)

But, the evidence he produced to counter my statement was evidence for the material sense of source.

gravy sourced;
Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents

A cause is mentioned in the part he quoted;

Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC dust. These products are:

• Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents
• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials

However, I clearly stated prior.

And no natural causes have been shown to show these effects in the lab (and reported in a journal or official report).

So anyway you look at it, he made the mistake.
 
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The "thermite" theory exists for one reason. Dr. Jones realizes (unlike a lot of truthers) that controlled demolition and explosives make a lot of noise. So Jones now needs to keep revising this theory to support his conclusion. Backward to most scientific approaches.

I thought He was revising the theories to support his evidence to prevent the theories falsification.

I believe he proposed thermite because he knew that explosives do not survive fires over 250c, and no explosive known cuts steel in the way seen in the pictures from 9/11/2001.

However what do I know I am just the person working hard, blowing myself up from time to time to find the truth, why would I know anything about it?
 
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