Police handcuffing 5-year-old

Cleopatra said:
It's a typical line I find in my PM Box almost on a daily basis. I hoped that they have paid you to come up with it.
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No, I paid all those people to send it via PM.
 
CFLarsen said:
I have not been "dodging" it. I have answered it.

Now, are you going to answer my question?
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You haven't answered it yet, Claus. I've been on vacation for four days and you still haven't answered it.

what is the physical harm to the girl that resulted from the use of handcuffs?
 
LegalPenguin said:
Duh!! All of them!!!

A class action suit against the school board, the firm building the school, and every corporation that supplied any building materials. Clearly, the construction of the school was negligent in that the design led to air quality and lighting issues that lead to predictable aggressive behavior among students and faculty, thus causing all schoolplace injuries ever and all the profound psychological damage associated with them.

I plan to ask for 398 million, but I'll settle for 1 million in attorney's fees and a new pencil for each named plaintiff...
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No wonder you don't bother with ambulance chasing. But now you've screwed up and given NoZed a new idea.

What about the NEA? And the Demorat Party? Shouldn't they be sued as well?
 
hammegk said:
No wonder you don't bother with ambulance chasing. But now you've screwed up and given NoZed a new idea.

What about the NEA? And the Demorat Party? Shouldn't they be sued as well?
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Nah. The NEA gets a cut from us for making sure the there are only incompetent teachers so we have more of these suits.

Plus all we do by suing the Democrats is get our money back... then they stop carrying our water for us....
 
CFLarsen said:
She was definitely harmed physically.
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Still waiting for your evidence on this claim. Definitely is a strong word so I presume you have evidence. Perhaps a medical report of the specific harm? Or at least her lawyer talking about bruises or scrapes would at least be something. Thus far you have provided nothing except anecdotal evidence from other incidences. You and I both know that is not evidence for this specific event. Nice try though. It seems you have made your conclusion despite no evidence.

Lurker
 
LegalPenguin said:
Nah. The NEA gets a cut from us for making sure the there are only incompetent teachers so we have more of these suits.

Plus all we do by suing the Democrats is get our money back... then they stop carrying our water for us....
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When did the ABA ok being truthful in public?
 
I've been thinking about my last reply, and it has helped me realize the source of my underlying outrage about this case. I knew there was a big problem here, but I wasn't able to articulate it. I was focusing, in my writing, on the fact that the kids removed from the classroom suffered a loss of instructional time. However, I doubt anyone took that argument very seriously as it applied to this particular case. We are after all talking about kindergarten here.

However, I got to thinking about safety, and the fact that I believe the schools I attended 30 years ago were safer than today's schools. What made them safer?

One of the things that makes a child feel safe is knowing that their are adults around to take care of them. If threatened, they will run to their parents or to a trusted adult. They want the problem taken care of. I think that's important.

In this case, a very small danger, in the form of an unruly child, presented itself. And what was the reaction? The adults ran away. They grabbed the kids and ran to the hallway. When danger reared its ugly head, they bravely turned their tails and fled.

What sort of message did that send? Will the kids who saw that trust their teachers? The next time a schoolyard bully appears, will their be someone on the victim's side to face them down, or will they just run away?

I can recall a very few incidents of teacher on student violence. I wasn't witness to any real incidents. One guy grabbed my hair and gave it a yank once, but I wouldn't call that violence. However, when a teacher hauls off and hits a kid, or throws one against a wall, you can bet those stories circulate quickly.

In the few cases I recall, the student body was of one mind. That kid really deserved it. That rotten fink crossed the line, and was stupid enough to do it in front of Coach MacMillan. No hospital bills involved in the cases I knew of, but enough real violence that the kids really knew who was the boss.

Our schools really were a lot safer then than they are now. You have to ask yourself why that is the case. I think the fact that the teachers were allowed to show a bit of muscle if they needed to had a lot to do with it. I can't prove that, and others may disagree, but if so, I think they have an obligation to come up with some other explanation.

On the subject of coverups, and the corresponding need for lawsuits.

I think the issue comes down to first, determining if a real problem exists. As I said, the emergency rooms weren't full of kids assaulted by their teachers when I was growing up. Therefore, the extent of the problem seems pretty small.

When there is a real problem, we could pass a law that simply required an investigation any time an incident occurred in which medical attention was necessary. Child welfare agencies could be empowered to investigate school districts. There are lots of alternatives that don't involve lawsuits, or a law that simply limited damages to actual compensation would solve the problem. If we were really talking about paying medical bills, no one would have been afraid of picking up that child and carrying her, because no one would anticipate any medical bills resulting.

My objection to the lawsuit system is that the wrong people are punished, and frequently for the wrong reasons. Students lose money for instructional purposes. Taxpayers pay the bills. And who gains?
 
hammegk said:
Here's another one ... but they didn't get the handcuffs on in time ..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7679212/
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Oh Hammy.. are we spinning straw again?

Nobody has claimed that the teachers are completely forbidden from physically restraining a kid in order to protect that child or other children. Just that physical restraint should be a last possible option.

Don't make me sue you for making the baby Clarence Darrow cry...
 
Originally posted by CFLarsen

"She was definitely harmed physically."

It is 'bleedin' obvious' he cannot possibly provide evidence for his claim.

Making a conclusion without evidence... is that something a skeptic would do?
 
jzs said:
Originally posted by CFLarsen

"She was definitely harmed physically."
It is 'bleedin' obvious' he cannot possibly provide evidence for his claim.
Making a conclusion without evidence... is that something a skeptic would do?
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Sure... that should have been obvious from the tenor of this whole thread.

Looking at a video of a screaming kid, and people with badges and guns, it is very easy to draw a conclusion based on 'how it looks'.

Even for a skeptic.

Particularly if there are considerations which are not widely known to everyone, such as policy, and background on this particular incident.

The question becomes, how long does one *sustain* that emotional conclusion before replacing it with a more rational one?

And that has seperated the wheat from the chaff in this case.......

Some people are looking at facts as they become available, and some people are going to extraordinary lengths to defend their original emotion driven conclusion.

And a couple of people are trying for some kind of a record in denial.
 
Bill O'Reilly on his radio show today said that the police *had* to be called in. And not just *one* cop showed up, but 3...and here is why: Lawsuits. We are living in a letigious society today. The teacher and principal could be sued, and who knows who else. They opted for the city to get sued, if necessary. He believes they did the right thing. That thy did the *only* thing (they could have) based on a possible lawsuit.

But he never discussed the possiblity of locking her up in the bathroom or somewhere to let her scream it out of her system. But then again, maybe the parents could sue for even this?...as crazy as that sounds?
 
In the thread "Race baiting and dishonest debate", Claus wrote


You are the one calling people racists, but without being able to show the evidence.

If you have the evidence, show it. Put up or shut up.
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Unto you, Claus, I say: take your own medicine! Name the physical harm to the girl that resulted from the handcuffs!

Or wait, I guess you have "shut up" by fleeing the thread. Sad.

Who's going to listen to your demands for evidence now?
 
Well, that is the whole problem...

Pulling a 'Claus' is not limited to just Claus and Shanek any more.
 
TragicMonkey said:
In the thread "Race baiting and dishonest debate", Claus wrote

Unto you, Claus, I say: take your own medicine! Name the physical harm to the girl that resulted from the handcuffs!

Or wait, I guess you have "shut up" by fleeing the thread. Sad.

Who's going to listen to your demands for evidence now?
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You give claused-minded enough "rope" and look what he does. ;)

Biased, cynical bullies tend to ignore the demands they constantly give others. In the thread on studying mediums and cold readers, I told specifically what a reading and transcirpt identifier are, after he listed the questions 3 times, then he said thanks, and listed the questions again. He is demanding I quantify the world seldom as if that has any bearing on anything. I mean, read the page and tell me if quantifying the word seldom has anything to do with what is being presented.

He should stick to schoolyards.
 
Bumping for Claus, who in another thread demanded someone "answer the question".

What was the "definite physical harm" to the girl?
 
I think the issue comes down to first, determining if a real problem exists. As I said, the emergency rooms weren't full of kids assaulted by their teachers when I was growing up. Therefore, the extent of the problem seems pretty small.
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Are you aware of the "hands off" policies that exist today?

When I was babysitting the first few times, I didn't know. I was spanked as a kid, and worse. So the wrath I saw from one simple swat to a bratty kid's butt really threw me. I was fired, no pay, chastised, and called a child-beater, ouch. I learned to never even touch a kid in any way again. I bet those parents spanked their kids, but you are not allowed!! And parents that don't spank, well don't you dare even talk down to their kid!

I bet with every incident a kid complains about (teachers just raising their voices) the school gets parents down there threatenig them. That's why policies are developed to deal with kids in a way that is as hands off as possible.

My son got a suspension on the 2nd day of school in grade one for a temper tantrum. I was able to get there right away and take him home. When I arrived to pick him up, he was sitting in the principal's office swinging his feet as he sat on a chair. He was being told to sit still. This was as still as my son could sit, so he yelled "I AM SITTING STILL!". My son didn't hit anyone or wreck a classroom. He did disturb the rest of the class with a tantrum though (when told to be quiet). Thing is, he had tics. They were verbal noises he couldn't help. Nobody knew he couldn't help it (not even me), but he was darn sick of being told to stop doing something he didn't do on purpose. He was darn tired of getting time outs for "being bad" when he wasn't purposely "being bad". So my son was suspended for temper tantrums.

So, how does my son get an education? I'm happy to say a few schools in the area have ways of dealing children who can't be totally still and quiet in classrooms (no medication will eradicate his tics, and things designed for ADD just make him psycho).

What about kids who don't have tics or even anything treatable that wreck classrooms? What if the parents refuse any medicines that may help? Well, in my area there are programs for them too. What if there are no schools with no programs? Expel them? Every kid has a right to an education though?

Does anybody know any more about the educational system in the area this particular kid was in? Do they have any other options after this craziness?

Schools have their hands tied. Unless parents agree to something like locking their kid in a bathroom, then they can't do a darn thing. This parent didn't object to handcuffs. Hopefully she is open to other options if there are any within the school system. Until we know more about the situation, then this case is useless to discuss.
 
No answer from Claus, yet.

I guess there will be a big rush to answer questions he asks, from now on.

What was the "definite physical harm" to the girl?

And, if that's not enough to chew on, here's a second question....how long will this thread stay on the first page before Claus answers? It's not like anyone's petty enough to bump it every day for the next year....

Just looking out for your credibility!
 
TragicMonkey said:
What was the "definite physical harm" to the girl?
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He's long gone, off bullying in some other thread.

The roaches tend to scatter when the lights are turned on.
 
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