Police handcuffing 5-year-old

[Zep]

Are you aware of the "hands off" policies that exist today?

When I was babysitting the first few times, I didn't know. I was spanked as a kid, and worse. So the wrath I saw from one simple swat to a bratty kid's butt really threw me. I was fired, no pay, chastised, and called a child-beater, ouch. I learned to never even touch a kid in any way again. I bet those parents spanked their kids, but you are not allowed!! And parents that don't spank, well don't you dare even talk down to their kid!

I bet with every incident a kid complains about (teachers just raising their voices) the school gets parents down there threatenig them. That's why policies are developed to deal with kids in a way that is as hands off as possible.

My son got a suspension on the 2nd day of school in grade one for a temper tantrum. I was able to get there right away and take him home. When I arrived to pick him up, he was sitting in the principal's office swinging his feet as he sat on a chair. He was being told to sit still. This was as still as my son could sit, so he yelled "I AM SITTING STILL!". My son didn't hit anyone or wreck a classroom. He did disturb the rest of the class with a tantrum though (when told to be quiet). Thing is, he had tics. They were verbal noises he couldn't help. Nobody knew he couldn't help it (not even me), but he was darn sick of being told to stop doing something he didn't do on purpose. He was darn tired of getting time outs for "being bad" when he wasn't purposely "being bad". So my son was suspended for temper tantrums.

So, how does my son get an education? I'm happy to say a few schools in the area have ways of dealing children who can't be totally still and quiet in classrooms (no medication will eradicate his tics, and things designed for ADD just make him psycho).

What about kids who don't have tics or even anything treatable that wreck classrooms? What if the parents refuse any medicines that may help? Well, in my area there are programs for them too. What if there are no schools with no programs? Expel them? Every kid has a right to an education though?

Does anybody know any more about the educational system in the area this particular kid was in? Do they have any other options after this craziness?

Schools have their hands tied. Unless parents agree to something like locking their kid in a bathroom, then they can't do a darn thing. This parent didn't object to handcuffs. Hopefully she is open to other options if there are any within the school system. Until we know more about the situation, then this case is useless to discuss.

Well said, Eos!

I think a number of us did touch on the issue of disruptive children with medical or mental issues way earlier in this thread. Of course they have to be treated differently, bearing in mind their respective conditions, and there is never likely to be one universally applicable solution for them. Thank Ed there are some there for you and your son!

But I think this one was a simple case of a school policy totally stymied by a normal little girl's temper tantrum. Which I find just gobsmacking.

I think you have also hit on what a number of people here have said as well: The responsibility not only for the necessity for "hands-off" policies but also the problem in the first place lies with the parents. It must have been the parents who sought the "hands-off" policy, not the school. It appears the school board or perhaps local government implemented it, again, I expect, at the parents' insistence. Makes you wonder if anyone actually thought through the implications of all this...

So, as I said above, their law is an ass.

 

[rdtjr]

Well said, Eos!

I think a number of us did touch on the issue of disruptive children with medical or mental issues way earlier in this thread. Of course they have to be treated differently, bearing in mind their respective conditions, and there is never likely to be one universally applicable solution for them. Thank Ed there are some there for you and your son!

But I think this one was a simple case of a school policy totally stymied by a normal little girl's temper tantrum. Which I find just gobsmacking.

I think you have also hit on what a number of people here have said as well: The responsibility not only for the necessity for "hands-off" policies but also the problem in the first place lies with the parents. It must have been the parents who sought the "hands-off" policy, not the school. It appears the school board or perhaps local government implemented it, again, I expect, at the parents' insistence. Makes you wonder if anyone actually thought through the implications of all this...

So, as I said above, their law is an ass.

I'll point out again why many parents feel this way. I know for my parents and many of their relatives they went to school in a time and in places where teachers were expected to inflict corporal and other punishments. This resulted in some getting beaten to bloody hell. This resulted in some of them witnessing friends or family members getting vicious beatings. Many of them became a little over-sensitized to such behavior and would never, ever allow another person to physically punish their children.

The reason we got to the point we have, legally, is because of that previous behavior. Adults by-and-large are mature and in-control enough to handle kids behaving badly... even when the adult is angry. But there are enough sadists and out-of-control adults to make expecting "reasonable" reactions from adults somewhat unreasonable.

Has the pendulum swung too far, to the point that even touching a kid can get you sued, fired, or locked-up? Surely. But we can't ignore how we got to this point. That's just dishonest.

 

[Zep]

I'll point out again why many parents feel this way. I know for my parents and many of their relatives they went to school in a time and in places where teachers were expected to inflict corporal and other punishments. This resulted in some getting beaten to bloody hell. This resulted in some of them witnessing friends or family members getting vicious beatings. Many of them became a little over-sensitized to such behavior and would never, ever allow another person to physically punish their children.

The reason we got to the point we have, legally, is because of that previous behavior. Adults by-and-large are mature and in-control enough to handle kids behaving badly... even when the adult is angry. But there are enough sadists and out-of-control adults to make expecting "reasonable" reactions from adults somewhat unreasonable.

Has the pendulum swung too far, to the point that even touching a kid can get you sued, fired, or locked-up? Surely. But we can't ignore how we got to this point. That's just dishonest.

Be careful of making a slippery-slope argument here. I don't think you will find that anyone is advocating a return to Victorian methods of child discipline in schools. I, for one, can find no redeeming reason to retain corporal punishment as a means of discipline in school - to use it indicates to me that the teacher as in locum parentis (I hope I got that right) has effectively lost control and is merely bullying the child into submission. And bullying is rightly a crime.

I'll repeat: To me, what appeared to happen in this case was simply a young child's tantrum that was not allowed to be dealt with and that escalated rapidly into a police matter. This was caused by a set of well-meaning all-encompassing but ill-advised laws that removed from the teachers ALL reasonable mechanisms they might have had to defuse and calm the situation without fuss, while playing straight into the hands of what looks to be a vexatious litigant in the form of the parent. Ed knows how much precious court time will be wasted on subsequent actions from this incident, and the precedents they might set.

There has to be a median path to this issue that protects children from violence at school, but allows teachers the scope to be teachers, not just playthings of the children.

 

[rdtjr]

Be careful of making a slippery-slope argument here. I don't think you will find that anyone is advocating a return to Victorian methods of child discipline in schools.

Nor did I claim that anyone held that position. I was merely pointing out that there was a path by which we go to where we are. There are reasons for the oversensitive nature of many parents to anyone laying a finger on their kids. BTW - We aren't just talking about Victorian times here, kids were badly abused by overzealous school authorities much more recently that that.

I, for one, can find no redeeming reason to retain corporal punishment as a means of discipline in school - to use it indicates to me that the teacher as in locum parentis (I hope I got that right) has effectively lost control and is merely bullying the child into submission. And bullying is rightly a crime.

I'll repeat: To me, what appeared to happen in this case was simply a young child's tantrum that was not allowed to be dealt with and that escalated rapidly into a police matter.

But how do they deal with it further? They removed the child from the classroom and put an adult administrator 1-on-1 with the disruptive child. At what point does a temper-tantrum become something else? At what point, when the parents abdicate their responsibility to the child and school, is the school allowed to resort to other means?

This was caused by a set of well-meaning all-encompassing but ill-advised laws that removed from the teachers ALL reasonable mechanisms they might have had to defuse and calm the situation without fuss

What would a reasonable method be? I've read some talk of time-out rooms here, but if the school has no room or funds for something like that, then what? What if the child needs to be put in a time-out room for the majority of his/her time at school and the parents refuse to act? Call DCPS?

while playing straight into the hands of what looks to be a vexatious litigant in the form of the parent. Ed knows how much precious court time will be wasted on subsequent actions from this incident, and the precedents they might set.

And if the school had taken other actions wouldn't they have left themselves just as open to litigation? Imagine an administrator forcibly dragging the child kicking and screaming down the hall... does that look any better?

There has to be a median path to this issue that protects children from violence at school, but allows teachers the scope to be teachers, not just playthings of the children.

Well, when the parents refuse to help, I don't see why DCPS or the police can't be that path.

 

[ranson]

It's been close to fifteen years since I attended a school with a corporal punishment policy, but even then, it seemed both sane and fairly litigation-proof. Paddling was an option that could be taken, by choice, as a replacemnt for detention. The way it worked was this:

A student earned detention, the mildest form of written punishment at the school. It involved about an hour of downtime either after school or on Saturday.

The student could choose to opt for paddling to replace detention. One swat = one detention period. You could replace up to two periods a week.

The availability of this option was left up to the parents. They could deny the school the ability to paddle, even if the child would prefer it. This ability to disallow corporal punishment was offered in every single case where the student wanted the option. My own parents disallowed it the only time it came up, knowing that the hour was more valuable to me than my rear.

I'm not saying this is ideal, but I think it's a good model for controlled use of corporal punishment, with parental approval/disapproval before any use.

Admittedly, I went to a rather violent school at that time. It went from police visits three times a week the year I started to maybe once a week by the time I left. I know of at least three examples of student/teacher violence (Not counting incidents of restraining violent students; that was an almost daily occurence. One principal earned the nickname "Flying Tackle" Jim Strong). They usually involved students assaulting teachers or administrators. These were students ranging in age from 11 to 15, so some were small, others almost fully grown. Of the three I can think of, the teachers, while allowed to actively defend themselves, came out on the losing end. Two were beaten badly, one of those losing his job for striking the student after he had been restrained.

They brought in strongarm administrators with no qualms about using physical retraint and force to clean up the school, and gave them almost a free reign. When questioned, the principal would often pull out the weapons he had confiscated and the reports on students escorted away by police. He had no regrets.

The school is currently one of he most peaceful I have ever been around. They moved the same team of principals around to clean up other schools in the area, with great success. Again, as I mentioned before, I'm from West Virginia originally. My current place of residence would probably frown upon many of the tactics used in my old home schools. Mountain State people tended to look on it as a simple practical matter of safety for the majority.

 

[Meadmaker]

Imagine an administrator forcibly dragging the child kicking and screaming down the hall... does that look any better?

It does to me.


Eos,
Exactly right.

Ranson,
Welcome. I look forward to reading more. Your principals were allowed to do what was necessary, and it worked. Would that more were allowed to do so.


I, for one, don't think this is about corporal punishment or lack of corporal punishment. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong or damaging with corporal punishment, and I think it is usually effective. However, I have reluctantly adopted a stance mildly opposed to it in schools, simply because there are indeed sadistic people in this world and giving one of those guys a paddle and a license to use it can lead to real problems.

My objection in this case was that the hands off policy not only prevented corporal punishment, but also prevented physical restraints that would have quickly put an end to the situation with the least disruption to other students.

 

[bigred]

I read the article one more time. Have you seen the results of the online vote???


Can anybody please help me here? I think I'm going insane. Online votes are not typical, reliable. But the strong tendency can't be denied.

How in the world can adults treat a small kid like this? Police officers? Sorry, I guess I'm still lacking words here.

I'm trying to figure out what is freaking out so many of you here, and what I REALLY find appalling is that nearly half of those taking the poll think there is NEVER an appropriate time to handcuff a child. What if a kid came at you with a gun? Still want to tell her to go "time out" or help her get in touch with her feelings??

Hello.......this kid wasn't just "acting up a little" - she was COMPLETELY out of control. I'm not saying handcuffing her was necessarily the best path (I would think an adult could otherwise subdue a 5-yr old), but clearly she had to be restrained somehow, and if the officer cannot otherwise do so, well hey kid, time to learn your consequences have actions. Lord knows your parents and the school system sure as hell aren't doing it. Oh that's right, the school systems aren't allowed to really discipline kids much anymore, because it's "abusive."

Un-freaking-real.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Oh that's right, the school systems aren't allowed to really discipline kids much anymore, because it's "abusive."

Perhaps Claus told them about the "definite physical harm" that results.

Of course, we're still waiting for him to say what that "definite physical harm" actually is....

 

[crimresearch]

"Well, when the parents refuse to help, I don't see why DCPS or the police can't be that path"

Particularly since (unlike the remote viewers here who have assured us that this 5 year old was 'just throwing a tantrum'), the police and DCS have the ability to get the child help in case what is really going on is driven by abuse, or disease, or drugs, etc.

I'm not sure which is worse..those with no children or experience second guessing the professionals in that field, or those with children who don't see anything all that unusal about the child's behavior, but are outraged at the school staff and the police for doing their jobs properly.

 

[davefoc]

I'm not sure which is worse..those with no children or experience second guessing the professionals in that field, or those with children who don't see anything all that unusal about the child's behavior, but are outraged at the school staff and the police for doing their jobs properly.

As to not seeing anything unusual in the child's behavior, I suspect I had about the same reaction as a lot of people with children. While my own children never did anything quite like this child, my own children occasionaly had bad tantrums that did not seem to be based on any rational thoughts by the child that we could discern that were not easily controlled. Therefore it was fairly easy to imagine that another child would on occasion be subject to more extreme tantrums than we had observed in our own children. It is plausible both that bad parenting might produce such a situation, as seemed to be the situation in this case, or that with millions of kids out there some of them are just going to be more extreme with respect to tantrums than the few children that we have direct experience with.

 

[athon]

This is obviously a massive issue which inspires a lot of emotion in people. I thought I'd briefly offer my opinion on this, as a teacher, for what it's worth. I have not read all eighteen pages of this and will probably simply be reiterating what somebody has already said. If so, forgive me.

Firstly, just to comment on what Eos has said. I agree that the fundamental structures that most of the world's education systems are based on are essentially flawed. They are overly focussed on pure academia, are under-resourced to be able to handle diverse learning needs and are straying from education on the basics such as literacy and numeracy. This creates massive problems when it comes to preventing issues to do with learning problems and handling diverse social needs such as ADHD and ASD.

Prevention is the key to dealing with any problem, and there is a way to go within our schools. I cannot agree more.

However, there is an increased tendency for schools to decrease the reflection of society outside. Students are increasingly sensing that they are in charge and will go to great lengths to secure that authority. They run the halls, it seems, and we have few powers to control that. I have been assaulted by year 8 and year 9 students, have been threatened and have been the focus of enraged parents. Teachers have limited power to do anything, and yet are still expected to be able to supervise and control a group of young people. Psychology is often all we have, and I can say that we do a damn good job considering that it is all we have access to sometimes.

I do not advocate corporal punishment, mostly because it has never been demonstrated to have an effect superior to good preventative measures and a consistent, well constructed discipline system. However, there are indeed going to be occasions when a choice has to be made by a figure in authority in a short amount of time on whether the damage a person can do can be limited by use of verbal reasoning or by physical restraint.

Anybody who feels that a younger individual is easier to control through physical means has never been in the situation where they are faced with the decision. I have had to armlock a year 7 (10 years old) student who was determined to cause another child damage. Had I the means to handcuff this student, I may have made that choice faced with the need to restrain the other student and to control the rest of the class.

Again, anybody who can offer me a better alternative in this situation will be most welcome to share.

I cannot and will not comment on the individual action taken by the police in this situation. I was not faced with their decision. However, I can understand that it may have been necessary. Handcuffing is not a physical punishment. It is a form of restraint that limits the need to use other forms of movement restrtiction, such as pinning or locking limbs (which, IMO, could cause more damage than cuffing).

We get outraged by such extreme views, however it seems to incite less outrage when a five year (or in my personal case, 10 and older) old can cause such problems in the first place.

Athon

 

[crimresearch]

Good point...
I suppose there is no way of telling how many parents looked at that kid's video and though it was normal because they let their kid act that way, or because they assume that other parents let *their* kids go out of control..

 

[rdtjr]

Good point...
I suppose there is no way of telling how many parents looked at that kid's video and though it was normal because they let their kid act that way, or because they assume that other parents let *their* kids go out of control..

You know, I thought the same thing for a moment. But we'd then have to come to some conclusion as to why all of those other misbehaving kids aren't just as bad in school. Even if other folks' kids are out-of-control at home they are, at least, raised well enough to not take such behavior into school.

The important fact here is that this is one case of one massively out-of-control child. There is no epidemic of unruly children being handcuffed in American public schools. It seems some of the folks here believe that this kind of behavior and the ensuing reaction are endemic... they are not.

 

[Meadmaker]

It seems some of the folks here believe that this kind of behavior and the ensuing reaction are endemic... they are not.

Athon seems to think the behavior is endemic, and he (she?) seems to be in a position to know.

I seem to think that this child's behavior is at an extreme end of behavior that is, indeed, endemic.

 

[athon]

Athon seems to think the behavior is endemic, and he (she?) seems to be in a position to know.

I seem to think that this child's behavior is at an extreme end of behavior that is, indeed, endemic.

In my personal opinion, this is correct. I must stress, my own exeperience, while varied across two countries (three if you include indirect teaching through resource and curriculum design), is limited. You could say it is biased as I have not taught for a long term (longer than five weeks) in a private school.

This child has demonstrated extreme behaviour, however the style of antisocial behaviour (physical violence onto property and other individuals, inability to display reason etc.) is common and, in my opinion, on the increase. The reasons for this are numerous. Firstly, a greater range of students are being encouraged by governments to enter the education system and to remain there. Children who once would have stayed at home, been homeschooled or simply have worked for a family business are now forced into schools through legislation and encouraged through parent education.

Secondly, family-community-school relationships are not as strong as they once were, mostly due to increased numbers of students in school and an increase in the numbers of parents working (limiting family time). It is more difficult to include parents in school discipline (try contacting a parent during the day!).

Thirdly, the culture amongst students has less respect for teachers and the education system, with a focus on 'blame' culture where parents encourage their children to stand up for their rights (without really knowing what that means).

I could go on, but a lot of this is speculation based on experience.

I don't mean to make schools seem like war zones. 90 - 97% of all students are exemplary and display near perfect behaviour. That leaves at least 3% who do not. About one out of two hundred students might well exhibit behaviour that demands more attention than a school could offer by way of its discipline system.

Imagine just one student, however, out of several hundred, that decides to use violence and extreme antisocial behaviour in a single situation. What do we teachers have to rely on to protect property and the safety of others?

It might not be the norm, but it is common enough that we should be open to discussing alternatives. If an alternative means we should be able to consider physical restraint in an extreme situation, than I want to consider it as an option.

Athon
(BTW...he... )

 

[bigred]

who don't see anything all that unusal about the child's behavior, but are outraged at the school staff and the police for doing their jobs properly.

You can thank these goons for the growing lack of discipline in our schools today. "Don't touch my baby" - ie don't hold my kid accountable or punish them for bad behavior - etc etc.

PS: corporal punishment should certainly be a last resort. But the day it was banished and called "abusive" regardless of circumstance was the beginning of the end of our public school system IMO. Without that "trump card" of discipline, kids are growing more and more out of control (not saying it's all or even most, but one bad apple and all that), to the point where teachers spend ridiculous amounts of time playing wet nurse to a bunch of brats who are just begging to be smacked. This absurd little monster is but one example; I've heard of many more from teachers I know, and have seen some mighty good teachers quit the profession altogether because of it.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

This page of posts have been great to read. Thoughtful and informative.

You can thank these goons for the growing lack of discipline in our schools today. "Don't touch my baby" - ie don't hold my kid accountable or punish them for bad behavior - etc etc.

Yeah, no kidding. In one school a teacher was saying they couldn't mark a child's answer "wrong" with an x or anything. So fragile are these little egos! How the heck do the kids learn to correct themselves then? I really hope the teacher was talking about the way things were going and not about the way things were. My memory is foggy here.

I'm running into problems with my 7 year old and his school. He is acting up there the way he never does at home. Making noises and moving constantly. The teacher didn't even know my oldest has tourettes, but she is convinced my youngest has it. She has marked off a sheet of all the things he does.

I don't know if it is learned behaviour that he is repeating? My oldest did everything at home and school. My youngest only does these things at school. At home he gets a time out if he constantly makes shooting noises and such. At school he just gets told to stop it, and I'm getting phone calls about it. If he's disrupting the class then he should have to stay in at recess or something, not just get told to stop.

So, we're going to get him assessed. What am I going to do if they don't punish him at school? Miss a lot of work getting my son from his school because he is noisy? He's grounded from going outside right now because he was really noisy yesterday at school.

Sigh.

 

[bigred]

They should at least have an OPTION open to a parent for more discipline (ie have you sign something if they're freaked out about a possible lawsuit) saying "I hereby authorize you to stick your shoe up my son's butt if he gets way out of line" (ie words to that effect).

 

[gnome]

They should at least have an OPTION open to a parent for more discipline (ie have you sign something if they're freaked out about a possible lawsuit) saying "I hereby authorize you to stick your shoe up my son's butt if he gets way out of line" (ie words to that effect).

I personally feel that corporal punishment should generally be left to the parents, if it's used at all... too much room for misunderstanding on method and degree.

In general I would be wary of blaming the school for what may be a parenting problem. If the school exceeded or ignored reasonable measures, then that's clearly a problem... but it's possible for something to get past what reasonable measures can do, without it being the school's fault.

 

[bigred]

Blaming the school for a child's obnoxious behavior would be ridiculous.

gnome, if you say "no corporal punishment," then tell me, how would you suggest handling a situation like this? Certainly spanking the little brat would have been a lot better than having to call in cops and have them handcuff the kid.