Police and Psychics

[Lucianarchy]

Luci, That is now 8 times in 2 threads you have sited that "Police Federation and BBC" rubbish, I told you last time that I would refuse to continue to point out the flaws in it.

No flaws have been demonstrated. No one has provided a more credible source other than the BBC or the Police Federation. Both demonstrate that the police work *WITH* psychics in a positive way, *both* demonstrate that Hannibal has been mislead or misinfomed in his claim:

"They may listen to them and say "thank you", but rest assured the "prediction" is treated about as seriously as if they had come in and said they were Jesus. " - Hannibal

He is not man enough to admit his mistake in the face of the evidence, for shame.

 

[Hannibal]

See my previous answer and stop clutching at straws

For shame on you too for being so petty.

Oh, and define "being a man" for me. I would like to know how I fit into your definition...that is actually a lie I don't give a poop I just like to know what I am being accused of being (or not).

Luci, do you seriously think you are convincing anyone here? Honestly?

 

[Hannibal]

And now to the Los Angeles police dept. where according to Dan Cooke, head of the public relations for the department. "The LAPD has not, does not and will not use psychics in the investigation of crimes, period, if a psychic offers free information to us over the phone, we will listen to them politely, but we do not take them seriously. It is a waste of time."

Gee, what does it mean Luci? It is so ambiguous isn't it?

"Do you now accept that Police do not use Psychics but will respond to ANY information given by ANY member of the public?"

Gosh, that too! I wonder what it means?

Oh yeah, Luci, I am being sarcastic. You have already proven your inability to differentiate between offhand comments and genuine points so I will try and keep it simple for you from now on.

Have a nice day though!

 

[headscratcher4]

Luci:

I know my last post was long, and as my wife has told me, I am often worth ignoring. However, given the bogus material you cite for your assertions, please respond to my factual point. That is:

Police do not use Psychics because it creates bad evidence. No chain of evidence created by reliance on a psychic would be admitted into a court of law. Finally, can you point to one case, anywhere in the western world in the last 50 years where evidence created by a psychic has been critical to the determination of a case -- i.e. the conviction of a criminal.

I do not know, but I would bet all I have, that in England and the US, at least, the answer to that question is NO.

Because that answer is no, no credible police force will ever use or rely on psychics. Now, if you believers want to put it to a test, submit those "studies" you claim establish proof of Psi to a court in order to have psychic testimony declared scientifically valid, e.g. DNA, fingerprints (I know, there's been some recent questions about fingerprints), etc. That would be real first steps toward actually proving that you believe those “studies” have any real merit. It would prove the scientific acceptance of the alleged phenomenon. It would prove the utility and value of psychic "insight", and it would prove that police use psychics.

However, as they don't, you and those who assert the reality of "psychics" wont.

You can always find some odd police officer somewhere to blather about this. However, the fact remains that there is no recorded police case or crime that has been solved as a result of evidence discovered through use of a psychic. Not one.
______

 

[The Fool]

Luci..
Turning up to the track every day with the same beaten Greyhound on a lead is not going to do your long term reputation any good. Get a new link eh???
Can't stay and chat, my house got burgled and the detectives are here. So far there has been no usefull leads from the Crystal ball But they said not to worry because they have a ouija board in the van if we get stuck....

 

[Marc]

I heard somewhere that one definition for insanity was if a person repeatedly takes the same actions, under the same conditions, and expects different results.

By that definition just about everyone on this thread might be considered insane. You keep repeating the same actions: using logic and demanding evidence from lucian. Do any of you expect to get any other reaction than denial, deflection, obfuscation, and lies?


Just wanted to point that out.


Marc the Troll Starver

 

[chrisjt]

Since the BBC press release is ambiguous and gives no direct quote from any source at Scotland Yard you have to read between the lines:

"Scotland Yard confirmed they had consulted(been contacted by) Mrs Evans in the past to help them with an investigation(which she didn't) and the National Crime Faculty confirmed she was registered on their database as a psychic(timewaster)."

 

[RandFan]

I know my last post was long, and as my wife has told me, I am often worth ignoring. However, given the bogus material you cite for your assertions, please respond to my factual point. That is:

Police do not use Psychics Because it creates bad evidence. No chain of evidence created by relience on a psychic would be admitted into a court of law. Finally, can you point to one case, anywhere in the western world in the last 50 years where evidence created by a psychic has been critical to the determination of a case -- i.e. the conviction of a criminal.

...waiting...

 

[Charlie in Dayton]

No flaws have been demonstrated. No one has provided a more credible source other than the BBC or the Police Federation. Both demonstrate that the police work *WITH* psychics in a positive way, *both* demonstrate that Hannibal has been mislead or misinfomed in his claim:

The BBC is a news organization. Take what they say with whatever quantity of salt you think appropriate.

What is the 'Police Federation', who or what is its membership, and where is its jurisdiction (if any)? Is this any sort of official law enforcement group (a la Interpol), or is it more of a fraternal organization? Do they speak officially for anyone, or just unofficially for themselves? Or are they some sort of PR group?

I haven't seen these questions yet, and I believe the answers will reflect greatly on the credibility of the entire issue.

 

[Hannibal]

The Police Federation is teh job equivalent of a union. The Police are not actually allowed a union or to go on strike so the Federation provides negotiation with the government and support for its employees. They also provide legal representation if necessary for any officer "in a spot of bother".

They are NOT a body that is allowed to dictate policy - and ultimately there is little they can do anyway (for reasons stated above). They are not an enforcement group and are there solely for the welfare of members. Any report they make on the ins/outs of a case will be in a similar vein to any news report and subject to the same criteria for credibility.

 

[Lucianarchy]

These two references have still not been debunked. the Police Federation represent the rank and file police officers, those that actually *do* the work. The second comes from the BBC well known for accuracy and credibility throughout the world.

The first one is the Police Federation magazine and gives evidence from one of their detectives about how a psychic was used and hhow she scored direct hits, particularly in repsect of the nickname. To suggest that either the psychic is involved in the crime or that a secrit police conspiracy operates which gives the info to the psychics on the sly, is so stupid, that any claims to it must furnish extraordinary evidence.
http://www.polfed.org/magazine/12_2..._2001_ghost.htm

The second, demonstrates that the police indeed do use psychics to "help" with their enquiries, and is confirmed by Scotland Yard and the NCF by the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pr.../08/taro9.shtml

Both these examples come from highly credible sources, and as such prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that Hanniball and the Fool are evidently *wrong* in any claim they may have that the police don't use psychics in the UK. Ed has already confirmed that the police use psychics to "help" solve cases in the US, this evidence confirms that the same is true in the UK.

 

[Ove]

I heard somewhere that one definition for insanity was if a person repeatedly takes the same actions, under the same conditions, and expects different results.

To be correct i believe that is the signs of a "Manic Depression"

[/IMG]

 

[Lucianarchy]

To be correct i believe that is the signs of a "Manic Depression"

[/IMG]

Indeed, so in the face of such highlt credible evidence it does seem very irrational for the Fool and Hannibal to keep making personal opinion over verifiable facts. It perhaps has more to do with their unwillignness to behave in an honourable manner and apologise for their misinformation and act like grown men.

 

[xouper]

Indeed, so in the face of such highlt credible evidence it does seem very irrational for the Fool and Hannibal to keep making personal opinion over verifiable facts. It perhaps has more to do with their unwillignness to behave in an honourable manner and apologise for their misinformation and act like grown men.

You have that exactly backwards. But I'm not surprised. It's on record that you have previously denied the credibility of the BBC when it contradicted your beliefs.

Ed has already confirmed that the police use psychics to "help" solve cases in the US

Repeating these same lies over and over do not make them any less false than the first time you posted them.

 

[Hannibal]

Hear, hear!

 

[chrisjt]

The second, demonstrates that the police indeed do use psychics to "help" with their enquiries, and is confirmed by Scotland Yard and the NCF by the BBC.

The following statement by Mrs Evans clearly implies that the police don't use "psychics" to help with their enquiries:

"They don’t want to look as if they’re not doing their job properly. In 20 or 30 years I think the police will be using psychics to help them solve crimes."

This press release is both ambiguous and self-contradictory and is typical shoddy, sensationalised press reporting of the alleged supernatural.

 

[Hannibal]

Indeed, so in the face of such highlt credible evidence it does seem very irrational for the Fool and Hannibal to keep making personal opinion over verifiable facts. It perhaps has more to do with their unwillignness to behave in an honourable manner and apologise for their misinformation and act like grown men.

Luci, are you being obtuse or stupid?

I am NOT stating personal opinion - I am stating FACTS derived from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. There is a wealth of difference.

The links you posted are self-contradictory and have been de-constructed on several posts. to whit, there is NO EVIDENCE for the Police approaching the psychic; NO EVIDENCE for the information actually being fundemental in solving the case (intelligence analysis) and NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that Police use psychics IN A LINE OF ENQUIRY unless the "psychic" has first approached them and VOLUNTEERED the info.

Please re-read my post referring to Ybo - the logic is IDENTICAL to that which you are using.

Also Luci, why do the stale, tired and often reposted TWO links that you provide have more weight than the ELEVEN provided by Latimer? I would say your "evidence" has been countered more than adequately.

Furthermore why ignore DIRECT TESTIMONY from myself (UK based Police experience), Scotland Yard (about as "official" as you can get) and from Andalyn (US based Police experience)? All have stated that POLICE DO NOT EMPLOY PSYCHICS!! Follow the links - they all say the same. Even yours for goodness sake!

As a final note, this is how stupid your logic and your statemnets are;

If psychics are USED by the Police (note the emphasis) to solve crimes, then th eevidence they present must be testable and credible. To put it another way, it must be admissable in a court of law. Why is it Luci that they only offer info that relates to matters that DO NOT REQUIRE A COURT APPEARANCE? I think that you'll find it is because the case would be thrown out. Try this for size

"How did you find the knife in the house Officer"
"Information from a psychic"
"I see...and was the warrant signed by a Senior Officer on those grounds alone"
"Err..yes.."
"Your Honour I move that this case be dismissed on the grounds that the evidence presented was as the result of an illegal search and therefore inadmissable"

This is only a potted example and greatly over-simplified but NO OFFICER IN THE WORLD WILL STAKE THEIR REPUTATION LIKE THIS on info that is provided bya psychic. The fact you claim they would shows your ignorance of the legal system and the Police force in general.

Luci, I will not engage in a flame war with you. You seem to think that by attacking my masculinity you will goad me - you will not.

How many lives have you saved Luci? How many crimes have you solved? How many assaults have you prevented? How many domestic incidnets haveyou cleaned up? How much of a difference have YOU made in the world by your DIRECT actions? I am DAMN PROUD of my work in the Police - and I am going to resume my career in a few weeks. I have proven to anyone with a sense of impartiality that you are spouting forth nonsense. Look at the responses I get compared to yours? Does that not tell you something?

Think on this too Luci - "When more than three people tell you you that your pipes are leaking, see a plumber"

Bahala Na!

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

I think the police should stop trying to rely on psychics for finding people. The idea is just nonsense. Why this is even debatable is out of the question. Face it, psychics are not god with finding people, and most of them are quacks in the first place. No psychic has won Randi's challenge yet!

 

[Hannibal]

Chessman,

READ THE THREADS!

Police DON'T! Only Luci seems to think that!

Bahala Na!

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

We need to rely more and more on physical evidence, instead of quack psychics! John Edwards, if you read this, go and hang yourself already. You do not stand a chance when it comes to Randi's challenge. I myself think that you are a deceiver of people. Face it, you can not give a true clear reading, because you started alot of this new age psychic stuff in the first place. So understand, you need to just quit it, orface the Wrath of the skeptic community. I would lol if he actually went to the police to be a psychic on the case.