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Wolverine said:


Oh of course, I didn't think there was any doubt about the matter, but was just curious to see specifically what sort of reply I'd receive. :)

Good one Wolverine. You do understand that this is not going to worry Lucianarchy one little bit. Luci will either say you made the whole thing up or do the usual trick......The usual trick is to vanish for a couple of weeks then return and start again with an identical proposition and some stupid "cops use psychics" link.
 
Thank you for the corroboration.

Luci, can we say now that I was right all along? I won't think less of you for it.
 
Wolverine said:
Out of sheer curiosity, I e-mailed Scotland Yard the following:



To which I received this reply:


" My knowledge is that we do not employ psychics but if they offer suggestions we take them into consideration as we do with any evidence offered by anyone."

Indeed, that quote completely debunks Hannibal's claim about psychics, to wit:

"They may listen to them and say "thank you", but rest assured the "prediction" is treated about as seriously as if they had come in and said they were Jesus. "

...is now proven to evidently, completely and uttery wrong.

In fact the Police Federation magazine and the BBC both report how psychics work in a*positive* and helpfull way with the police, in fact, no one has provided *any* credible evidence that the police *don't* take them seriously.

In light of thiis, I think Hannibal and Fool should behave like grown men and now offer their apology.
 
If information is handed over at the front counter of a station by a member of the public it will be analysed and evaluated through the proper channels. If that info is from someone who claims to be psychic then it will instantly be rated as unproven and unreliable. That is a rating of x5 on the intel report. Do you now see why I wanted you to answer my questions Luci?

If however there is information submitted by a "psychic " DURING AN INVESTIGATION it will be looked at and treated as any other lead. Although a lot lower down the hierachy.

I will apologise for not posting a more detailed summary the first time around. If the info is given on an enquiry it will be looked at - if it is someone coming in saying "the spirits have told me who stole a packet of crisps from tescos" it will be dismissed. Luci, what is "light hearted"? I was using humour to make a point - I was NOT expecting that to be taken as a 100% official guide to dealing with "psychics". For believing you were inteliigent enough to differentiate I apologise.

Now - how about YOU apologising for being a)wrong and b)calling me a liar. I also find it curious you focus on an off the cuff remark rather than the core of my postings. There are numerous questions that have been asked of you and numerous points raised which you have FAILED to address.

Here's one to get you started - Do you now accept that Police do not use Psychics but will respond to ANY information given by ANY member of the public? In other words THE PSYCHICS GIVE THE INFO FREELY IT IS NEVER REQUESTED!

Look at the witchdoctor analogy.

Bahala Na!
 
Lucianarchy said:


In fact the Police Federation magazine and the BBC both report how psychics work in a*positive* and helpfull way with the police, in fact, no one has provided *any* credible evidence that the police *don't* take them seriously.
(snipped for brevity)
Quote:

Inspector Edward Ellidon of the U.K's Scotland Yard stated that:
1. Scotland Yard never approach psychics for information.
2. There is no official police psychics in England.
3. The yard does not endorse psychics in any way.
4. There is no recorded instance in England of any psychic solving a criminal case or providing evidence or information that led directly to its solution.

and:

And now to the Los Angeles police dept. where according to Dan Cooke, head of the public relations for the department. "The LAPD has not, does not and will not use psychics in the investigation of crimes, period, if a psychic offers free information to us over the phone, we will listen to them politely, but we do not take them seriously. It is a waste of time." (my emphasis)

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm
 
Psiload said:

I put the credibility of the BBC, The Police Federation and Scotland Yard *way* above some obscure, clearly biased web source. Way above.

There is *no* evidence that the police act in the manner claimed by Hannibal. To claim such in the face of such strong evidence, is not only reprehensible, but downright misleading and may stop some psychics from offering information at all. Given the fact that psychics *do* help the police, which has been evidenced by the Cheif of Williston PD, USA , Ed's confirmation from the Williston detective involved in the case and the UK's own Police Federation, such continuance of misinformation is plain stupid.

Even wolverine confirmed that Scotland Yard don't treat psychics in the disrespectful and dismissive manner claimed by Hannibal!

Case solved.
 
Lucianarchy said:


I put the credibility of the BBC, The Police Federation and Scotland Yard *way* above some obscure, clearly biased web source. Way above.

The BBC Press office? That out ranks an experienced Police officer and all of his contacts in the force?

Scotland Yard? Remember this........

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email. My knowledge is that we do not employ psychics but if they offer suggestions we take them into consideration as we do with any evidence offered by anyone.

Email Office
Metropolitan Police Service
New Scotland Yard
London SW1H 0BG


:confused:


Hannibal,

This troll is yanking your chain. It's plain you won this argument hands down days ago.



Now, about those lottery numbers...............
 
Lucianarchy said:


I put the credibility of the BBC, The Police Federation and Scotland Yard *way* above some obscure, clearly biased web source. Way above.

There is *no* evidence that the police act in the manner claimed by Hannibal. To claim such in the face of such strong evidence, is not only reprehensible, but downright misleading and may stop some psychics from offering information at all. Given the fact that psychics *do* help the police, which has been evidenced by the Cheif of Williston PD, USA , Ed's confirmation from the Williston detective involved in the case and the UK's own Police Federation, such continuance of misinformation is plain stupid.

Even wolverine confirmed that Scotland Yard don't treat psychics in the disrespectful and dismissive manner claimed by Hannibal!

Case solved.

I'm extremely uninterested in debating whether police agencies treat psychic detectives with gentility or hostility... pointless discussion. Whether they serve them tea and buttered sconces, and sit them in the comfy chair as they listen in rapt attention to their "impressions", or whether they kick them in the ding ding, and tell them to make like a drum, is of no consequence.

I'd like to stick to the crux of the issue: do psychic detectives help or hinder police? I'm sure that a vast majority of law enforcement officers and officials would agree that the majority of psychic "assistance" is anthing but. For every one "psychic tidbit" that neatly retrofits the specifics of a crime ex post facto, there are piles of useless psychic crap that send police on fruitless wild goose chases. Considering a few positive outcomes, to the exclusion of the majority of negatives, is a classic example of that old parapsychological hobgoblin, 'trumpeting the hits, while forgetting the misses.'

Here's an interesting point to ponder... consider some of the utter nonsense that taxpayer dollars have paid for, and are paying for, in the name of law enforcement:

-The DKL Lifeguard
-The Quaddro Tracker
-lie detectors
-graphology(not to be mistaken with forensic document examination)
-remote viewing

Proof positive of the willingness of certain law enforcement agencies to devote a portion of their fiscal budgets to the employment of unorthodox, unproven, and controversial methods. Yet not a single psychic detective on any agencies payroll? Go figger? Why do you suppose that is?
 
How do you know that police do not use or rely on Psychics? Simple, because the whole criminal judicial system (at least in the U.S. and I would imagine the UK) would fall apart if police relied on “psychic” evidence.

Why, you might ask? Well just imagine. A psychic calls up, tells the police “I am a psychic and I have had a vision of …” a crime scene, a murder, what have you.

First, the police designed to enforce the law (we are not yet living in the age of Minority Report), would only be interested if they had knowledge that a crime has been committed – for example a missing person. Otherwise, their first response would be complete dismissal. However, it is critical to keep in mind that the police don’t just investigate crimes; their goal is to gather evidence of crimes for presentation to proper judicial and legal authority. In short, they are very concerned with not just the fact of a possible crime, but in the evidence that proves the crime exist.

So, second, let us next say that there is indeed a crime being investigated. In the US, at least, calling up and telling the police that you know where a body is buried while potentially interesting information, is in and of it self insufficient to trigger many of the things that the police need to act on a possible crime. For example, they need to have some idea how the informant knows? I.e. is there a reasonable basis for that knowledge?

Why, because in many cases, for example, the police must get a warrant to search a premises or site. To get a warrant, they have to convince a judge or magistrate that they have reliable information that a crime has been committed, that a search is necessary, and that the police have a good faith, reasonable belief that the warrant will turn up information necessary to the investigation.

In any case involving a psychic, this basic requirement does not even pass the first level of credibility. I.E. “your honor, we need a warrant?”

“Why?”

“A psychic called and told us that there was a body buried at that location.”

“A psychic you say? How do you know they are psychic? What is the proof?”

You can see where it degenerates from there BECAUSE there is no scientific proof, little less consensus that psychic powers exist (one of the problems of Luci’s assertions and the psychics doing everything they can to avoid proving their powers to a scientific certainty).

However, in that instance where the police do not need a warrant – for example requesting permission of a property owner to search a site that is granted. They still are faced with two critical questions?

How did the psychic know – evidence of psychic power can not be presented to a judge or jury specifically because it is not recognized as scientific evidence. In short, the police must, ultimately dismiss the “psychic evidence” as being usable because it has the same quality as the police arguing to a judge when asked how they found the body: “well, your honor, a little birdie told us.” Indeed, at least in the US, any criminal defense lawyer would get that evidence tossed so quickly as to make one’s head spin.

So, second, they almost have to assume that the supposed psychic who calls up and) states that they have had a vision of where a body lies (which, btw, I contend has never occurred) that the alleged psychic is in on the crime, for how else would the psychic know where the body was buried? I note that psychics are not generally being prosecuted as murder suspects, or abettors of these kinds of crimes. Indeed, it would provide them with a perfect and very public opportunity to make their case to a jury – “I didn’t do the crime, but I have visions. Let me show you how this works…” (it has never happened).

In the end, and where I am getting with this, is that the police cannot legally make a case with “psychic” evidence. Their job is to make a legal case. Even in that circumstance where they have heard “psychic” information and consider it (as they state they consider all offers of help in solving a case), they have to have usable evidence from credible sources to make a case. To this end, psychic evidence is not only unusable it is irrelevant. Again, why? Because you couldn’t get a search warrant for someone’s house based on the assertion of a psychic…it makes for a bad case, and for bad law.

Which gets back to a point I made earlier. Luci: if you are serious about this, are your supposed beliefs in this mumbo jumbo so strong as to state that you would you stand before a judge in a criminal case and let that judge (or jury) determine your guilt or innocence based on the police use of psychic evidence?

Would you tell your lawyer not to challenge the validity of the psychic and psychic evidence?

Do you believe that any of the citations that you’ve posted here to prove your case about Uri or any psychic should or world stand in a court of law to make the case that “psychics” are real?

If so, why hasn't it been done so...for instance, 10 years ago, DNA testing was at lest "questionable" evidence (Remember the challenge in the OJ case?). Today, because the scientific community accepts the premise, it is generally accepted, indeed dispositive in many criminal cases. IF the science proving psyi is so good, why hasn't it been accepted in courts as evidence?
 
Hello,

This is a reply I posted on the 'Are We Looking at all the Evidence' thread, which does bear directly on what Lucianarchy is saying here. I noticed the similarity in his dismissal of evidence that contradicts his own; to wit:


Lucianarchy wrote:
I'm a skeptic, and I put the credibility of the BBC and The Police Federation before some obscure site.

Ummmm...does that mean you are not even going to look at the site (http://pac-c.org/police_use_of_psychics.htm)at all?

Lucianarchy wrote:
Skeptical, logical and critical.


No, it's not skeptical, logical, nor critical. If you are taking, at face value, the information the BBC and Police Federation are putting forth and accepting it without further verification; you are standing precariously upon an 'argument from authority.' You are picking facts to suit your theory, rather than constructing your theories and beliefs to fit the available facts. That is a common failing, of both believer and skeptic alike.

If you truly wish to be 'logical and critical' you need to see what your opponents are saying; and if their argument has enough weight behind it, either incorporate those ideas into your theory; or discard the theory in light of the new evidence. The links I provided you in the 'Police Psychics' thread are quite full of sourcing material; are you looking at those ideas or evidence? Or are you avoiding it, afraid you'll have to modify your own?

You are also making a huge assumption, in your simple reply to me, above. I wonder if you know what that assumption is?

Keep smiling,
 
For those who are using a score card to follow along:

Lucianarchy said:
There is *no* evidence that the police act in the manner claimed by Hannibal.
Another lie by Luci. There is plenty of evidence, but Luci dismisses it all because it contradicts her claim.

To claim such in the face of such strong evidence, is not only reprehensible, but downright misleading and may stop some psychics from offering information at all.
This might actually be a good thing if so-called "psychics" stopped pestering the police with their nonsense. As many police have said, psychics are a waste of their time. This is another fact that Luci dismisses since it contradicts her claim.

Given the fact that psychics *do* help the police, which has been evidenced by the Cheif of Williston PD, USA , Ed's confirmation from the Williston detective involved in the case ...
Here we go yet again with this same stupid lie from Luci. No matter how many times this lie has been refuted, Luci continues to repeat it, perhaps hoping some uninformed person will fall for it.

It has been repeatedly shown on this forum that the information given by Noreen Renier was wrong. The body was not found where she said it would be. This irritating fact never seems to stop Luci from claiming that the psychic "helped" in this case, when clearly she did not, regardless of anything the police told Ed. Ed did not confirm that psychics helped the Williston police solve the case.



Edited to fix spellnig error.
 
What is the name of your "laboratory" that you have referred to?

What about those lottery predictions?

Just curious.
 
Lucianarchy said:
Even wolverine confirmed that Scotland Yard don't treat psychics in the disrespectful and dismissive manner claimed by Hannibal!

Case solved.

Uh, no.

Imagine you are a desk sergeant at a police station:

A citizen walks in off the street, approaches you, and states: "Hello. I have some information I'd like to report that may be pertinent to case X."

-or-

A citizen walks in off the street, approaches you, and states: "Hello. Last night while I was communicating with my spirit guide Chauncey, he brought to my attention this poor spirit who says he was murdered, and I have reason to believe it was the deceased in case X. I'd like to channel his spirit for you now so he can tell you who murdered him."

I would be most curious to see the sergeant that would actually file a report to his superiors based on the latter other than for the purpose of having a laugh.

This statement... :

from Scotland Yard
My knowledge is that we do not employ psychics but if they offer suggestions we take them into consideration as we do with any evidence offered by anyone.

... does not offer verification that psychics are not treated in a disrespectful or dismissive manner. It merely asserts that Scotland Yard:

1) does not employ psychics to participate in police investigations

2) takes evidence provided by any individual into consideration

Again...

Originally posted by Hannibal
Do you now accept that Police do not use Psychics but will respond to ANY information given by ANY member of the public?

This just isn't so difficult to grasp. Is it?
 
Luci
Have you looked at any of the links yet offered up by others on this board? Seems to me a true skeptic, as you often proclaim yourself to be, would have researched everything and would be willing and able to discuss alternate viewpoints.
Can we expect that to happen anytime soon, or are you simply going to continue on like a broken record pointing to the same story over and over.
What do you say Luci? Unleash that powerful skeptic mind on us.
 
Lucianarchy said:
In fact the Police Federation magazine and the BBC both report how psychics work in a*positive* and helpfull way with the police, in fact, no one has provided *any* credible evidence that the police *don't* take them seriously.

In light of thiis, I think Hannibal and Fool should behave like grown men and now offer their apology.

Luci, That is now 8 times in 2 threads you have sited that "Police Federation and BBC" rubbish, I told you last time that I would refuse to continue to point out the flaws in it.

You are not interested in debate, you just restate the same flawed argument over and over and over and over. This is the style of the propagandist not the debater.... Ever thought of taking up the "conciousness creates matter" cause? Your style would really suit it.

Ok, Here is your apology....

I apologise for providing evidence that is not consistant with your conclusions.

I note you have not posted to this thread for a while, your usual
behaviour is when the weight of contrary evidence starts to make you look more and more stupid you vanish for a while.....wait till the thread drifts off the page, then post another, using the same tired "evidence" and hope some people will think it is something new....
 
Hannibal,

This troll is yanking your chain. It's plain you won this argument hands down days ago.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. I think everyone can see that. I have no agenda here, I am simply stating things that I KNOW (as opposed to read).

Luci, I am no longer debating the issue with you. I am sure that you will post more demnads for apologies but you will not get them. You are obstinate and I for one do not relish debate with that kind of mentatlity. At least Bethke was good for a laugh...at times.
 
Luci,

As our crackpot in residence, please pass on to all your crackpot friends the sincere thanks of a grateful nation for the great assistance they had rendered to police investigations over the years..............by staying out of the way.

As for the meddling dimwits who waste valuable police time by peddling their unwanted, useless, and inane mumbo jumbo I would say this. Tell them they can take their crystals, their pendulums, their crystal balls and their dousing rods and shove them right up their.................but wait. I don’t need to say it. They already know.

And so do you.
 
Marc said:
I heard somewhere that one definition for insanity was if a person repeatedly takes the same actions, under the same conditions, and expects different results.

By that definition just about everyone on this thread might be considered insane.

Indeed, given the fact that Hannibal and Fool have been given the evidence from the BBC and The Police Federation and Scotland Yard that the police work in a positive relationship with psychics, it is quit irrational in the face of such evidence for Hannibal and Fool to be so reticent to apoligise for their repeated and evidently erroneous claims.
 
Given the fact that Hannibal and Fool have been given the evidence from the BBC and The Police Federation and Scotland Yard that the police work in a positive relationship with psychics, it is quit irrational in the face of such evidence for Hannibal and Fool to be so reticent to apoligise for their repeated and evidently erroneous claims.
 

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