Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[KingMerv00]

Yes, there's a bit difference between "25' below the original surface level of the field" and "25' below the point where we started digging." As to them having "more mass" than I figure: I think you mean that they are "denser" than I figure (i.e., not just "more mass" but "more mass per cubic inch"). But even if I assumed they had the density of solid lead, I'm still not picturing them getting far into the soil. I did a little googling and found that a bullet will penetrate about 16 inches into dry sand at maximum. I don't know if you can scale that up for the FDR, but I'd be interested in the maths that shows a radically different result.

If I had a suspicion about all this it would be that the 25' figure was the total depth to which they were required to dig away the site to make sure that they got everything, and that this figure got attached to the FDRs by the press because it's a dramatic number ("Wow, they buried that far!").

Obviously, though, I could be utterly wrong on every count.

Killtown, take note. See how Yoink isn't certain? Notice that the search for more evidence is ongoing?

Follow suit.

 

[Buckwheatjones]

Yesterday's garbage has windows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P200061.jpg


[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/P200061.jpg/776px-P200061.jpg[/qimg]

I guess killtown has to address that.

If 93 was faked, did they just dump a bunch of plane parts into a hole? Surely there was debris, but if you're killtown you just decide the debris is planted and from some aircraft boneyard.

I'm wondering if there the serial numbers of the engines at the site were checked to verify that they were from the 757 going by Flt 93 that day. Suppose they do this as a matter of practice in all crash investigations?

 

[KingMerv00]

I guess killtown has to address that.

If 93 was faked, did they just dump a bunch of plane parts into a hole? Surely there was debris, but if you're killtown you just decide the debris is planted and from some aircraft boneyard.

I'm wondering if there the serial numbers of the engines at the site were checked to verify that they were from the 757 going by Flt 93 that day. Suppose they do this as a matter of practice in all crash investigations?

And for the love God WHY? Why fake a plane crash? If they had the power to fake a crash, they could've just sabotaged a 757 before takeoff. Fewer people would be involved and it still looks like a terrorist attack.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

And for the love God WHY? Why fake a plane crash? If you have the power to fake one. Surely it would be easier just to sabotage one before takeoff. Fewer people involved and it still looks like a terrorist attack.

But, the villains always make the plan too complicated. How else are the underdog, no-one-believes-them heroes supposed to win?

 

[R.Mackey]

I think you mean that they are "denser" than I figure (i.e., not just "more mass" but "more mass per cubic inch"). But even if I assumed they had the density of solid lead, I'm still not picturing them getting far into the soil. I did a little googling and found that a bullet will penetrate about 16 inches into dry sand at maximum. I don't know if you can scale that up for the FDR, but I'd be interested in the maths that shows a radically different result.

If I had a suspicion about all this it would be that the 25' figure was the total depth to which they were required to dig away the site to make sure that they got everything, and that this figure got attached to the FDRs by the press because it's a dramatic number ("Wow, they buried that far!").

No, I really did mean "more mass." A lead bullet won't penetrate more than 16 inches, perhaps, but a lead cannonball fired with the exact same muzzle velocity will go quite a bit further than that.

When the projectile (in this case, a Flight Data Recorder) plows through a yielding solid (in this case, dirt), it's more of a drag effect, with the surface area rather than the volume determining how quickly kinetic energy is dissipated. As objects scale up, the volume (scales as the third power of diameter) grows faster than the surface area (scales as the second power), so a scaled-up object will experience less resistance per unit mass, and thus penetrate farther.

To put hard numbers on it, take a real FDR, assume it's a cube 20 cm on a side, and weighs 8 kilograms total. Its volume is 20cm x 20cm x 20cm = 8,000 cubic centimeters, thus it has a density of 1 gram per cubic centimeter.

Now scale that FDR down to dollhouse proportions, 1cm on a side, but with the same density. You have an FDR with volume 1cm x 1cm x 1cm = 1 cubic centimeter, and thus weighs 1 gram.

Now accelerate both to the impact speed, roughly 260 meters per second. Which one will penetrate farther? Well, the mini-FDR has only 1cm x 1cm of cross-sectional area, or 1 square centimeter, through which you're pushing 1 gram x (260 meters / second)² of kinetic energy, or 67.6 Joules. That's 67.6 Joules of energy per square centimeter of crater to dissipate in the dirt.

The big FDR has an area of 20cm x 20cm = 400 square centimeters, so it makes a hole 400 times bigger. But its energy is 8,000 grams x (260 meters / second)² of kinetic energy, or 540,800 Joules. That's 1,352 Joules per square centimeter of crater. Consequently, it tunnels a lot farther.

Hope that made sense. Yes, it is more complex than that, since we don't punch a square hole in the ground, and the FDR will deform as well, but the basic concept is correct.

Also, it isn't clear just how they measured recovery depth. It could have been 25 feet below the level plain, but only a couple of feet below the bottom of the crater. We really need a more detailed report to investigate much further.

ETA: Grammar c.f. further/farther. If it's a distance, it's "farther." Otherwise, it's "further." I knew that before I posted, honest.

 

[Yoink]

No, I really did mean "more mass." A lead bullet won't penetrate more than 16 inches, perhaps, but a lead cannonball fired with the exact same muzzle velocity will go quite a bit further than that.

When the projectile (in this case, a Flight Data Recorder) plows through a yielding solid (in this case, dirt), it's more of a drag effect, with the surface area rather than the volume determining how quickly kinetic energy is dissipated. As objects scale up, the volume (scales as the third power of diameter) grows faster than the surface area (scales as the second power), so a scaled-up object will experience less resistance per unit mass, and thus penetrate farther.

To put hard numbers on it, take a real FDR, assume it's a cube 20 cm on a side, and weighs 8 kilograms total. Its volume is 20cm x 20cm x 20cm = 8,000 cubic centimeters, thus it has a density of 1 gram per cubic centimeter.

Now scale that FDR down to dollhouse proportions, 1cm on a side, but with the same density. You have an FDR with volume 1cm x 1cm x 1cm = 1 cubic centimeter, and thus weighs 1 gram.

Now accelerate both to the impact speed, roughly 260 meters per second. Which one will penetrate farther? Well, the mini-FDR has only 1cm x 1cm of cross-sectional area, or 1 square centimeter, through which you're pushing 1 gram x (260 meters / second)² of kinetic energy, or 67.6 Joules. That's 67.6 Joules of energy per square centimeter of crater to dissipate in the dirt.

The big FDR has an area of 20cm x 20cm = 400 square centimeters, so it makes a hole 400 times bigger. But its energy is 8,000 grams x (260 meters / second)² of kinetic energy, or 540,800 Joules. That's 1,352 Joules per square centimeter of crater. Consequently, it tunnels a lot farther.

Hope that made sense. Yes, it is more complex than that, since we don't punch a square hole in the ground, and the FDR will deform as well, but the basic concept is correct.

Also, it isn't clear just how they measured recovery depth. It could have been 25 feet below the level plain, but only a couple of feet below the bottom of the crater. We really need a more detailed report to investigate much further.

ETA: Grammar c.f. further/farther. If it's a distance, it's "farther." Otherwise, it's "further." I knew that before I posted, honest.

R. Mackey, you're making this waaaaaaaaaaaaayyy too complicated. Don't make me resort to forensics and draw a picture of an FDR bouncing off the ground.

And remember, I still have the "ha ha ha" big gun in reserve!

 

[KingMerv00]

R. Mackey, you're making this waaaaaaaaaaaaayyy too complicated. Don't make me resort to forensics and draw a picture of an FDR bouncing off the ground.

And remember, I still have the "ha ha ha" big gun in reserve!

OOOH! Can I draw the one where is crumples like a beer can?

 

[MortFurd]

Guys, we may be fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
It appears that Killtown may not be the originator of the diagrams.

 

[R.Mackey]

R. Mackey, you're making this waaaaaaaaaaaaayyy too complicated. Don't make me resort to forensics and draw a picture of an FDR bouncing off the ground.

And remember, I still have the "ha ha ha" big gun in reserve!

Bring it.

Incidentally, I tried to use roughly correct numbers for the real FDR. I don't have any blueprints, but the dimensions and weight are about correct. The density I computed, 1 gram per CC, is the density of water. This is probably not an accident -- you'd want them to float if possible. If I read up on them more, I'd probably find that this is a design goal of real FDRs.

I just thought that was interesting. Carry on.

 

[KingMerv00]

Guys, we may be fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
It appears that Killtown may not be the originator of the diagrams.

So he pulled all of that out of someone else's rectum? Eww...

Maybe that is why he doesn't know anything about the "math" involved.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Guys, we may be fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
It appears that Killtown may not be the originator of the diagrams.

Someone want to invite him over here to defend his claim?

eta: he has the crater in the wrong spot, he has it further north than it actually was.

 

[Buckwheatjones]

And for the love God WHY? Why fake a plane crash? If they had the power to fake a crash, they could've just sabotaged a 757 before takeoff. Fewer people would be involved and it still looks like a terrorist attack.

Don't even know if he's pondered that. He may have expended his braintrust on this cloud matter.

But why go to the trouble of creating a bogus photo if you, the government, aren't going to use it as any sort of official record? In all the time since this happened, this is the first time I've seen this photo. Heard others make similar comments. Why go to lots of trouble to fake this and then fall down on the PR end?

 

[KingMerv00]

Don't even know if he's pondered that. He may have expended his braintrust on this cloud matter.

But why go to the trouble of creating a bogus photo if you, the government, aren't going to use it as any sort of official record? In all the time since this happened, this is the first time I've seen this photo. Heard others make similar comments. Why go to lots of trouble to fake this and then fall down on the PR end?

The more I think about this the sadder I get. Here is the thought process:

1) The photo is doctored or merely the result of a fake plane crash (ordinance).

2) Therefore United Flight 93 never existed or never crashed.

Ok Killtown...where the hell is the plane?

Edit: Did David Copperfield vanish it? With a name like Copperfield, he might be Jewish. Zionist conspiracy perhaps?

 

[Buckwheatjones]

The more I think about this the sadder I get. He is the thought process:

1) The photo is doctored or merely the result of a fake plane crash (ordinance).

2) Therefore United Flight 93 never existed or never crashed.

Ok Killtown...where the hell is the plane?

Where the hell are the people?

 

[KingMerv00]

Where the hell are the people?

Where the hell is my patience for these jerkwads?

 

[TxLady]

Ah, Mortfurd, I as going to post something about that, ;;I read it a couple of days ago.
KingMerv, post the one where the plane crumples like a beer can and the explosion occurs undergound, then the plume erupts in the magical world at the center of the earth! See, I put on a tin foil hat this morning, but alas I had to throw it away, it so messed up my hair.
Serously, you're all doing a good job and I'm thankful.
I'm sad about his thought processes too. I can imagine one of my sons telling me they believe like that and how disappointed I would be. One son insisted he was a vampire for a while, lol.

 

[Pardalis]

Real plane crashes:

[qimg]http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041128/041128_jetcrash_ebersol9p.hmedium.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/danang-crash.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://www.davezilla.com/archives/crash.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://www.chinadaily.net/english/doc/2005-11/09/xin_3911020915172591940713.jpg[/qimg]

Fake ones:

[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/757-crater-scale_small.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://www.pittsburghlive.com/images/static/terrorism/photogallery/9301.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/crater-stahl.jpg[/qimg]

And fake plume:

[qimg]http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2352/plumeanalysis1000ftsmdj4.gif[/qimg]

Learn the truth:

http://killtown.911review.org/flight93.html

And be sure to...

2) Taking a photo out of context is lying.

 

[Pardalis]

I mean just look at all that green grass!

Oh my god! Paul Greengrass directed the movie "United 93"...

conspiracy...

 

[Buckwheatjones]

Oh my god! Paul Greengrass directed the movie "United 93"...

conspiracy...

Conspiracy.....I knew it!

 

[TxLady]

And the name of the one who made Killtown's graphics is mentioned in Scary Movie 4! or 3 or whatever the last one was. I wonder what that means?!?