Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[TxLady]

That is hilarious, Regnad Kcin! I'm just....speechless. lol.
I'll have to mention it to my family next time I talk to them. I'm a terrible actress though, I think they'd catch on pretty fast. lol

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

1) No, YOU made the claim first. YOU need to prove your claim.

No shifting the burden. You said I was lying. Provide evidence that I was lying, or retract your claim.

2) Taking a photo out of context is lying.

How was the photo I addressed out of context?

3) I did with my Popular Mechanics map.

The PM map shows the flight trajectory as being consistent. If it is not, please show a detailed analysis of why it is not or retract your claim.

4) I did provide evidence and reasons why. I can't help it if that's not good enough for you (cause obviously NOTHING is good enough for skeptics.)

You provided opinions without substantiating evidence. That is not evidence.

5) LoL!!!

Dry grass ignites at 525F http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1870554#post1870554

6) Oh yeah, THOSE pics were much, much clearer.

Sarcasm is not evidence. If you intepret the pictures differently, then spell it out clearly and provide substantiating evidence to support your analysis.

7) Look at the arrows.

There are no arrows on the crash picture, only on the PM map. Please provide evidence that the orientation of the picture is the same as the PM map.

8)

I said, "1) e) Examples have been provided earlier in this thread showing that, even a jet fuel fire, burning on a stationary fuselage, will not necessarily damage vegetation in the immediate vicinity of the wreckage."
To which you responded, "e) if the fireball engulfed it, it should have, especially as "hot" as you guys claimed 93 could have been."
The only way for this to be true, and is what you imply in your statement, is if the fireballs in the referenced pictures were at a lower temperature than that of Flight 93. Provide evidence that this must be the case for the referenced photos or retract your claim.

9) All of the crater and grass pics show no debris. Debris is only seen in forest pics.

This pic, along with others, shows the debris field surrounding the crater and extending into the trees./URL] If you intepret the pictures differently, then spell it out clearly and provide substantiating evidence to support your analysis.

10) It means your plume was NOT BIG ENOUGH to appear so big in Val's pic.

Without showing your work/math/etc, this is nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion from you. Show your work, or retract your claim.

 

[Killtown]

1) Show me one place where we claimed the fireball had to be "hot". We argued that it could have been, which is true, but not that it had to be.

2) Also the fireball size we gave a range on, and you insist on using the high end of the range we produced. Most of us agreed it could well be on the low end of that.

3) IN any case, assuming the fuel was aerosolized into the air on impact (as we've contended would happen)

1) Oh, so now the fireball was colder? Nice change after I showed you guys the absurdity that there was a fireball coming out of the crater.

2) Even a small fireball would have singed the grass growing along the crater's edge.

3) LoL! What a joke. So the 5,500 gallons bounced off the ground, aerozolized, ignited, and didn't burn the grass!!!

 

[Pardalis]

2) Taking a photo out of context is lying.

That's freaking thick of you to say.

WHAT ABOUT YOUR PICS OF THE B-52 AND ALL THE OTHER CRAPPY COMPARISONS YOU HAVE PLASTERED YOUR CRAPPY BLOG WITH?

Pathetic.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

1) Oh, so now the fireball was colder? Nice change after I showed you guys the absurdity that there was a fireball coming out of the crater.

Strawman fallacy

2) Even a small fireball would have singed the grass growing along the crater's edge.

Unsubstantiated opinion. Show your supporting evidence or retract this claim.

3) LoL! What a joke. So the 5,500 gallons bounced off the ground, aerozolized, ignited, and didn't burn the grass!!!

Strawman fallacy

 

[Killtown]

Yes, Killtown, I did say I expected more burning than that shown in your picture. But then Gravy and others cited EVIDENCE that such burning would not necessarily be the case. azaal (sp?) in particular, linked to a very telling picture showing portions of a downed plane sitting in undisturbed, green grass.

This EVIDENCE convinced me that my expectations were wrong. Or, let me put it more baldly: I was wrong. By the evidence. I learned. I changed my opinion.

Got the program, Killtown? Now, tell me something about the crash that you have learned from this discussion.

They should you crashes that were like comparing apples and oranges. I should you guys pics that showed the grass wasn't burnt along the crater's edge and anywhere around the crater.

So either the fuel went underground, it was magic fuel, or there was NO JETFUEL THERE EVER!

 

[Pardalis]

Killtown, could you answer my question please?

Holywood can make alot of things. But usually people get hired to do that, usually large crews of people, with permits from the city, and usually it takes more than a day to set up.

So how come when 9/11 unfolded and the images of the crash of flight 93 were broadcasted nobody said: "Didn't we do that? Pennsylvania? Hey, I think that's our work!"

How come nobody has spoken out? How come they built this crater without anyone noticing it in the neighbourhood?

 

[Killtown]

I must have missed that proof, that or your definition of "proof" is wildly different from mine.

I measured it carefully on Google Earth, and it looks like, based on my guess of how far away the cloud likely is, that it would be right around 600 m wide. However, I noted that the width you measure depends on how far away you assume it to be. How far away you assume it to be is dependent on assumptions about the wind speed at that height, and especially the time between the crash and the photo.

We don't know the time at all, so the only thing I can say with confidence is that the cloud is very probably less than 650 m wide.

So what is your proof?

That the plume couldn't not have grown that big based on the amount of alleged fuel and the lack of explosion damage immidiately outside the crater.

My plume estimate is even far-fetched in generosity to the plumes big size! But even with my more realistic size then you guys, it PROVES it couldn't have gotten to the place that it would needed to be in the short amount of time that could have elapsed between the explosion and Val taking the photo.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

They should you crashes that were like comparing apples and oranges. I should you guys pics that showed the grass wasn't burnt along the crater's edge and anywhere around the crater.

So either the fuel went underground, it was magic fuel, or there was NO JETFUEL THERE EVER!

False dilemma

 

[Killtown]

How come nobody has spoken out?

Why would the conspirators speak out?

 

[Pardalis]

So are you saying that the entire town of Shanksville is in on it?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That the plume couldn't not have grown that big based on the amount of alleged fuel and the lack of explosion damage immidiately outside the crater.

Opinion without logic proof.

My plume estimate is even far-fetched in generosity to the plumes big size! But even with my more realistic size then you guys, it PROVES it couldn't have gotten to the place that it would needed to be in the short amount of time that could have elapsed between the explosion and Val taking the photo.

Actually, all of our estimates show it to be perfectly within the parameters. If you feel the rate of expansion of the plume was insufficient to reach the estimated width then please, by all means, show your work; or else retract this claim.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Why would the conspirators speak out?

Why would none of them?

 

[Ravenwood]

Not to be crude, but if the administration could not keep presidential BJ's a secret, what makes you think a conspiracy of this magnitude will be covered up...

 

[Killtown]

So are you saying that the entire town of Shanksville is in on it?

Man you are dumb.

Do not use insults.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[Hellbound]

1) Oh, so now the fireball was colder? Nice change after I showed you guys the absurdity that there was a fireball coming out of the crater.

2) Even a small fireball would have singed the grass growing along the crater's edge.

3) LoL! What a joke. So the 5,500 gallons bounced off the ground, aerozolized, ignited, and didn't burn the grass!!!

1) We gave you a range, from the ignition temp of jet fuel to a high end figure. FOr a fast fireball, it actually won't get much above the ignition temp because it burns off too quickly. We gave you a range, but I don't recall ever specifying a likelyhood of any temp in that range. You're committing a strawman (and showing your ignorance) by insisiting it had to be at a high temp.

2) Prove it. This didn't happen with many other plane crashes.

When you put your hand in something that's 500 degrees, will you get burned?

If you put a piece of paper or dry grass in somethin that's 500 degrees, will it catch fire?

Are you familiar with a "grenade trench" in military bunkers?

3) Partially correct. I have two theories, but I'm not an expert either. One, if the ignition was almost instantaneous because of the speed of impact, the fireball started before the fuel sprayed, and would have burned off in the air (before falling onto the ground below). The other way, the fuel could have sprayed out a good distance, but the ignited fuel is pushed out just like the rest, making it in a ring around the impact area.

Personally, I think my second idea is more likely. It would be interesting to do some splash tests. Throw a water ballon into a small hole, at high speed and an appropriate angle, and see how the water sprays and what it hits. Have to be scaled, of course. Consider how it's often the front seat on a log ride that gets the least water.

 

[Pardalis]

Man you are dumb.

You would probably want to rephrase that, inversely.

 

[rwguinn]

Man you are dumb.

Do I sense Panic in klow's answers lately?
Maybe his mommy found out what he's been doing slandering people?

 

[Killtown]

Not to be crude, but if the administration could not keep presidential BJ's a secret, what makes you think a conspiracy of this magnitude will be covered up...

Did it ever occur to you that the powers that be wanted to out Clinton with that to humiliate him, so he would "get in line"? Why do you think he's best buds with Bush Sr (Mr. Ex-CIA director) these days?

 

[Pardalis]

Killtown, how would an hollywood-style crew get to build this crater without anyone noticing it in Shanksville?