Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[Hellbound]

THAT'S his analysis?

Large pieces should be left, regardless of speed of impact?

Okay then.

580 mph equates to 850 feet/second. This is comparable to the muzzle velocity of a pistol. Flight 93 hit the ground at a rate of speed higher than the muzzle velocity of a .45 caliber round.

It's not uncommon for a solid lead, copper jacketed .45 caliber round to fragment upon impact, even with softer ground. Now imagine if the bullet, instead of being solid, was a framework of aluminum covered with with a thin skin.

Still think there should be large pieces?

 

[Wyn]

Who said the crater was caused by an ordnance?

Did A&E crash a loaded 757 to make this crater for there movie?...

You're kidding, right? You're actually using a TV movie as your "proof"?

 

[Hutch]

Excellent Post, Arkan, and the best KT could respond was "Nah, no it isn't!! why? Because I say so!"

KT, I have a quote in my sig that I rather like. From the same source I offer one for your consideration.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house.

 

[Gravy]

1 a) Wrong, the burnt forest section is at an inconsistent angle.

False. You neglect to consider the large scorched area and debris scatter in the field. You see broken and charred trees and assume that was the only area affected by the fireball. You are dead wrong, as I've already demonstrated.

b) "40 deg" is reported. they can report anything, doctor graphs, etc. the crater looks as if it was a "nearly 90 deg" dive than a 40 deg, or there would be "ripples" of dirt around the SE part of the crater where the plane moved the dirt underneath.

Your evidence that the FDR data was tampered with?

90 degrees? Then why is nearly all of the debris scattered in one direction?

There is a large mound of dirt in the direction of travel. There is no such mound in the opposite direction. Again, you are dead wrong.

c) fuel SHOULD HAVE BEEN on the grass outside the crater unless it went underground

The fuel, like the debris, went in the direction of travel – at eight hundred and fifty-one feet per second.

d) the grass is not burnt there. get some glasses...

The grass and dirt is charred over a wide area in the direction of travel. as I've already demonstrated. Stop lying.

(lower left corner is where the jet fuel should have scorched if the fuel spilled in the trajectory direction.)

It did, as has already been demonstrated. Stop lying.

e) if the fireball engulfed it, it should have, especially as "hot" as you guys claimed 93 could have been.

Who said the fireball engulfed the area opposite the direction of travel? You made that up. Killtown, why do you make things up about 9/11?

2) wrong, debris was thrown off to the plane's right side.

Debris was thrown in the direction of travel. Where was that large engine part found away from the wreckage, Killtown? Off to the right? Nope.

Why do you lie about the events of 9/11? Why aren't you man enough to apologize to Val McClatchey?

 

[Gravy]

Time to be a man and face the tough questions, Killtown. This will only take you a minute or two. No excuses. No shirking your responsibility to the victims you've deliberately harmed.


Please answer these statements with "true" or "false."

1) Your only published criterion for Val McClatchey's guilt was if the photo had been manipulated to insert the plume.

2) You did not have access to the original image.

3) You do not possess a high-resolution copy of the photo.

4) You have no basis for determining if the photo was digitally altered.

5) The FBI said the photo is authentic.

6) After 60 pages of instructions, advice, examples, math, physics, and even expert opinion, your conclusion about the size of the plume is based on your opinion that it should have looked like the crash of entirely different planes under entirely different circumstances.

7) If you were accused of a serious crime that you did not commit, you would prefer that your standards of proof be used against you, rather than the current U.S. legal standards.

8) You believe that a person should be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

9) It is wrong to needlessly cause pain to people.

10) According to your own criteria, you have not shown Val McClatchey to be guilty of anything.

Please do the right thing and answer true or false to these statements.

 

[Gravy]

THAT'S his analysis?

Large pieces should be left, regardless of speed of impact?

Okay then.

580 mph equates to 850 feet/second. This is comparable to the muzzle velocity of a pistol. Flight 93 hit the ground at a rate of speed higher than the muzzle velocity of a .45 caliber round.

It's not uncommon for a solid lead, copper jacketed .45 caliber round to fragment upon impact, even with softer ground. Now imagine if the bullet, instead of being solid, was a framework of aluminum covered with with a thin skin.

Still think there should be large pieces?

Great analogy, Huntsman.

Btw, I don't think Killtown drew that picture. It may have been that idiot "Spooky." But he's got it on his website amongst actual evidence.

 

[LashL]

Killtown has this posted on the flight 93 photos/maps/graphics page of his website. If this had been posted on page 1 of this thread, we would have known just what we were up against.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/879044eda0dad0ba4.jpg[/qimg]​

LOL - I recognize that. Killtown got that from that whacko who thinks that burning a cup of kerosene in a rabbit cage for 10 minutes and then photographing his foot on top of it is scientific proof that the WTC towers could not possibly have been brought down by large airplanes crashing into them and the subsequent damage and fires.

I kid you not.

 

[Hellbound]

Besides, Killtown, you're missing a big part of what we were saying.

Show me one place where we claimed the fireball had to be "hot". We argued that it could have been, which is true, but not that it had to be. In any case, none of us are experts, and our estimates were guesses (as we repeatedly tried to tell you).

Also the fireball size we gave a range on, and you insist on using the high end of the range we produced. Most of us agreed it could well be on the low end of that.

IN any case, assuming the fuel was aerosolized into the air on impact (as we've contended would happen), read a bit from the wiki article on Thermobaric weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric)

Fuel-air explosives disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against soft targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.

High pressure. Not heat.

Vapor cloud explosion modeling historically has been subject to large uncertainties resulting from inadequate understanding of deflagrative effects. According to current single-degree of freedom models, blast damage/injury can be represented by Pressure-Impulse (P-I) diagrams, which include the effects of overpressure, dynamic pressure, impulse, and pulse duration. The peak overpressure and duration are used to calculate the impulse from shock waves. Even some advanced explosion models ignore the effects of blast wave reflection off structures, which can produce misleading results over- or under-estimating the vulnerability of a structure. Sophisticated software used to produce three-dimensional models of the effects of vapor cloud explosions allows the evaluation of damage experienced by each structure within a facility as a result of a primary explosion and any accompanying secondary explosions produced by vapor clouds.

And this is what we've been trying to point out since you started your "experiment", which contained a total of 0 calculations, 0 formulas, 0 applied physics, and 0 knowledge. You just had us make some guesses (which we acknowledged as such) and made your own assumptions.

 

[LashL]

Btw, I don't think Killtown drew that picture. It may have been that idiot "Spooky." But he's got it on his website amongst actual evidence.

Yes, that's the guy, "spooked911" or something like that. He calls himself a "scientist".

 

[Belz...]

Well show me YOUR fireball then. It's up to YOU guys to prove YOUR claims.

Prove YOUR theory.

For the 6701th time, we don't HAVE A THEORY.

 

[Belz...]

I wonder if killtown thinks it possible to snuff out a candle flame with your bare fingers without getting burnt? Because candle flames have a peak temperature of about 1400C afterall and that is fairly warm...

I'd like you to answer this, Killclown.

Is this a "slow moving" plane crash?...

Oh, so now all plane crashes are alike, again ?

 

[Belz...]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

Please stop, you guys are killing me!!!

You're LAPI-ing again, Killclown.

 

[Belz...]

I thought you just said I have no evidence and done no analysis?







The plume is too big. Only YOU guys are going to by your "magic fireball" to create a 6-7 football field length plume!

Perhaps you'd care to look at Gravy's picture, again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1870829&postcount=2369

 

[Belz...]

You have a small section of forest burnt at on odd angle from the trajectory. Regardless of whether 93 did it or not, 93 DID NOT CREATE the massive fireball needed to make your 6-7 football length PLUME!!!

I thought you said you knew that clouds expand...

 

[Buckwheatjones]

Killtown has this posted on the flight 93 photos/maps/graphics page of his website. If this had been posted on page 1 of this thread, we would have known just what we were up against.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/879044eda0dad0ba4.jpg[/qimg]​

?

THIS is what we've been dealing with for two weeks? The guy who drew this thing is is the same guy we've been taking seriously for so long? I'm sorry. The only time I've ever seen imagery of an air crash, the pieces are scattered all around like busted china. I can't recall ever seeing them unscrew a fuselage out of the ground that looked like a giant accordion, except in CartoonWorld.

What sort of idiot could possibly think that a plane hitting the ground would not shed its wings immediately, but rather, that they would burrow themselves into the earth? They would have to be made of cast iron.

Gentlemen, I suggest we all step back and reconsider a few things. A boy who draws a cartoon like that as a serious effort to portray what happened at Shanksville, not just for the coloring book qualities of the sketch, but for the Looney Toon aspect of what happens to an airplane when it hits the ground, is a buffoon. Pure. Simple. We are going round and round the tree of reason, logic and science with a primate that has a bad theory in one hand, a banana in the other, and an armored skull three feet thick.

He came on here to persuade in his favor and has miserably, miserably failed. He has been shown over and over again that his theory is riddled with holes, and is either too impaired or too obstinant to admit when he is beaten.

Well, gentlemen. He has been beaten. The Tote Board shows he has been mopped up by a vote of 92%. No one here is buying his Load, but in his own mind he has "blown us away" with his inherently ridiculous cartoon and ideas. It doesn't matter if the rest of us are on here or not (recall the ignore list), because he is not listening to anybody but himself.

Trying to make killtown accept that his theory is bad is like trying to teach a duck to speak English. Neither is likely to happen. Ever. I am waiting for some figures to come in and when they do I'm going to post them and go.

That cartoon....I can't believe that freakin' cartoon.

"This is what would really happen to an airplane nosediving into the ground, Guys! It would accordion up with the tail sticking out of the ground, Guys!. Please take me seriously, Guys!"

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Random educated guess as to who voted "no" on the poll:
Killtown
Childlike Empress
geggy
Christopher7
ChuckSheen
thesyntaxera
Christophera

 

[Hellbound]

Christophera

 

[Buckwheatjones]

Random educated guess as to who voted "no" on the poll:
Killtown
Childlike Empress
geggy
Christoper7
ChuckSheen
thesyntaxera
?

Wrong.

Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wrong.

Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown
Killtown

Only if he has sock puppets, which is a suspendable offense.

 

[Buckwheatjones]

Only if he has sock puppets, which is a suspendable offense.

Well, I guess the admins would have to dig into his application to find that out, I haven't seen one post going killtowns way since I came on board around page 11 or something like that. I'd imagine those 8, if they stuck around for what happened later, kicked themselves they couldn't change their vote and left.

This guy is a bottomless pit of ignorance and I don't think the light of day will ever see a retraction by him. That cartoon? Did you see that? Amazing. Anyone who would believe a plane crash should have the tail sticking out of the ground like a Lawn Dart is never going to accept that photographic evidence that Grass or Snow don't always burn up in the wreckage or any other point anyone on here makes.

I'm not sure this thread any longer has a reason to be except to slap around our resident monkey.