Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Maybe you could help me understand just what real physics you think I should know, lets take my interpretation of this diagram below;

Now from my point of view, EU/PC, then why can't the flux transfer and sputtering combine to produce effect similar in appearance to this

Because FTEs do are just reconnection events in which a flux tube enters the magnetosphere and there is NO discharge, there are, though, accelerated particles, but there is no discharge happening.

Sputtering releases both positive and negative ions (see e.g. my paper on plasma pick up near Europa for both Cl- and Cl+ ions detected) and nothing there gives rise to anything that even remotely comes close to a little small lightning flash, let alone your rediculous ideas about mega-lightning creating craters. Your lack of physical intuition and lack of ability of back-of-the-envelope esitmation is staggering.
 
Because FTEs do are just reconnection events in which a flux tube enters the magnetosphere and there is NO discharge, there are, though, accelerated particles, but there is no discharge happening.

Sputtering releases both positive and negative ions (see e.g. my paper on plasma pick up near Europa for both Cl- and Cl+ ions detected) and nothing there gives rise to anything that even remotely comes close to a little small lightning flash, let alone your rediculous ideas about mega-lightning creating craters. Your lack of physical intuition and lack of ability of back-of-the-envelope esitmation is staggering.

Are you saying the object that causes the sputtering, is a constant?

Also reconnection? as if in magnetic reconnection? :rolleyes:

For someone who is payed to understand plasma, I thought you Tusenfem, would understand the different modes in can operate under, how else are the Europa Cl- and Cl+ ions generated?
 
Really? Care to give some evidence for that and explain how you define a charged dusty plasma?

Well is Saturn a magnetism body rotating inside a magnetized plasma?

Lets just say yes for arguments sake!

And does a plasma cloud co rotate with Saturn?

lets say for arguments sake, Yes

Could there be an interaction between a dust cloud and a magnitized plasma?

Lets say for old times sake , yes
The gravitationally bound dust clouds in the universe interact with the corotating plasma in a complicated way. This interaction is widespread in the universe and is important to understand in space physics. A relative nearby example of such interaction is the observed spokes in the Saturnian ring system. Other examples are the processes in the creation of the solar system, the dust structures at the birthplaces of stars in the nebulas and in the upper atmosphere visible as noctilucent clouds and the meteorite produced dust. The nature of spokes has been discussed for a long time. A plausiable theory must explain not only the rapid growth of the spokes but also their correlations with the period of Saturn´s magnetic field.
LINK

A dusty plasma is a plasma containing nanometer or micrometer-sized particles suspended in it. Dust particles may be charged and the plasma and particles behave as a plasma [1] [2], following electromagnetic laws for particles up to about 10 nm (or 100 nm if large charges are present). Dust particles may form larger particles resulting in "grain plasmas".

Dusty plasmas are encountered in:

* Industrial processing plasmas
* Space plasmas

Dusty plasmas are interesting because the presence of particles significantly alters the charged particle equilibrium leading to different phenomena. It is field of current research. Electrostatic coupling between the grains can vary over a wide range so that the states of the dusty plasma can change from weakly coupled (gaseous) to crystalline. Such plasmas are of interest as a non-Hamiltonian system of interacting particles and as a means to study generic fundamental physics of self-organization, pattern formation, phase transitions, and scaling.

Which bit are you having trouble understanding Tusenfem?

plus

Look at the picture!

050711saturnX-rays.jpg
 
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Just like planets such as Saturn cause dust to form into rings around them, some galaxies rip apart others and form them into rings as well. One stellar stream in the form of a ring is the Monoceros Ring, created as the Milky Way swallows a dwarf galaxy, the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, about 100 times smaller than it.

You do know Saturn's rings are a charged dusty plasma, don't you?


try to keep up Tuby!
 
Are you saying the object that causes the sputtering, is a constant?

Also reconnection? as if in magnetic reconnection?

For someone who is payed to understand plasma, I thought you Tusenfem, would understand the different modes in can operate under, how else are the Europa Cl- and Cl+ ions generated?

Do you even know what sputtering is? Apparently not. Sputtering, although it may sound a bit "electrical" is a totally mechanical process. The "object" (not really an object, it is a magnetoplasma like the Jovian plasma in the magnetosphere or the solar wind or ...) is not constant, therefore I show different observations in my paper, where I show from observations that the sputtering is not constant at Europa for the moon at different locations in the Jovian magnetosphere.

Plasma and neutrals will hit the atmosphere or the surface of a planetary body and through collisions kick off particles (either from the atmosphere or the surface) through impact or through charge exchange. In the case for the chlorine at Europa, the ions and atoms are sputtered off the surface ice. When sputtered off as ions from the surface, most likely you will end up with Cl+ as the reaction is too energetic to bind an extra electron to Cl. When in the atmosphere either Cl+ or Cl can charge exchange with any other ion to capture extra electrons (though for Cl+ it would need two collisions, so this process is less likely). Cl- can exist, because that exactly fills up the outer eletron shell, and thus is a more stable configuration that your usual variety of negative ions.

And magnetic reconnection, yes, how else is the SW plasma going to enter into the Hermian magnetosphere. Ohhh the anguish of having to explain the basics of ordinary physics time and again!
 
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Well is Saturn a magnetism body rotating inside a magnetized plasma?

Lets just say yes for arguments sake!

And does a plasma cloud co rotate with Saturn?

lets say for arguments sake, Yes

Could there be an interaction between a dust cloud and a magnitized plasma?

Lets say for old times sake , yes

Which bit are you having trouble understanding Tusenfem?

plus

Look at the picture!

Oh yeah, the "look at the picture" kind of physics, wonderful. Birkeland had plasma, the rings of saturn are made of ICE and ROCKS (from less than a mm to several km in size), both pics have nothing whatsoever to do with eachother. For example, the rings are rotating Keplerian, whereas a plasma would rotate with the rotation rate of the planet.

Apparently, you have no evidence, you do not explain what a charged dusty plasma is, to stave your argument you need "lets say for arguments sake, Yes" three times, not really convincing now, is it? Do objects greater than say a cm still count as "dust"? Are the Kronian rings anywhere near the "doughnut sized plasma ring from e.g. Enceladus?

Once more, you say it looks like a duck, so it must be a duck, but most likely you are mistaking a platipus.
 
I surely hope that other readers of this forum get some of the stuff that I am explaining here. It would be a waste when I would only be talking to Sol88, talking about throwing pearls to the swines.
 
Tusenfem, dusty plasmas is one of those PC memes with great persistence.

While there is a defintion of dusty plasma and how it operates (and lots of research), there is a meme that it is 'just like a plasma'.
 
I did answer RC's post here.

He didn't read the papers, just stated a whole load of things that were misrepresentations and wrong, in a blunt way that did not progress the discussion at all.
What papers are you talking about?
I have read every paper on Peratt's plasma model that I have access to. I have on this computer copies of:
  • On the evolution of interacting, magnetized, galactic plasmas.
  • Evolution of the Plasma Universe I.
  • Evolution of the Plasma Universe II.
  • 3-Dimensional, Particle-In_cell Simulations of Spiral Galaxies
  • Plasma and the Universe - Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation.
  • Rotation velocity and neutral hydrogen distribution dependency on magnetic field strength in spiral galaxies.
  • Electric space - Evolution of the plasma universe.
I have read these and other papers by Peratt.

What I have stated is correct: Peratt's model does not match reality.
I hope that my stating the facts about the flaws in his model "in a blunt way" did not hurt your tender feelings.

Please present a list of the "whole load of things that were misrepresentations and wrong".
A few of my representations were:
  • A basic mistake in comparing the mass (or position) computer simulated images with the images of galaxies (i.e. light).
  • A really basic mistake in ignoring gravity.
  • An ad hoc (ex nihilo?) assumption that galactic sized plasma filaments exist that have electric currents running through them (with an unspecified source) and somehow manage to be parallel.
  • The fact that his model's galactic sized plasma filaments should be visible from their synchrotron radiation.
  • The fact that his model falls apart as soon as stars form - which is early in the evolution of galaxies - since it applies only to the free plasma in the galaxies.
A couple more (but more speculative):
  • His model's galactic sized plasma filaments should be visible from the X-ray radiation emitted from the shock waves caused by their movement through the IGM.
  • The filaments are not only inherently instable (like all plasma filaments) but are also externally instable. Galaxies move and thus filaments cross, merge and short-circuit. Galaxies collide - what happens to their filaments?
 
Saturn's Rings

It is news to no one, except perhaps a demented Sol88, that the rings of Saturn are not plasma. A fascinating plasma it would be, which just happens to reflect sunlight with the same reflectance spectrum of water ice.

Saturn's rings: Spectral reflectivity and compositional implications
Lebofsky, Johnson & McCord
Icarus 13: 226-230, Sep 1970

Abstract: A photometric study of the rings of Saturn was carried out during the 1969 apparition. A reflection spectrum of the A and B rings was obtained for the spectral region 0.3–1.05 μ. The reflectivity for both rings decreases sharply toward blue and ultraviolet wavelengths. A comparison of the ring reflection spectrum with spectra for other solar system objects shows that the ring curve most closely resembles the curve for the Galilean satellite J1. The ring spectrum lacks distinctive absorption features found in lunar, Martian, and Vesta spectra in the 0.3–1.1 μ region. Absorption features characteristic of water frost have been found recently in the 1.25–2.5 μ region, but the decrease in reflectivity of the rings toward shorter wavelengths indicates that material other than pure water frost also must be present. A physical mixture of frost and silicates seems to be unlikely as ring material. Frost-covered silicates and mixtures of frosts with other compounds, perhaps modified by ultraviolet or high-energy particle radiation, remain possible ring constituents.

Not only do the rings reflect sunlight just like water ice, but they reflect radar just like water ice too.

Saturn's rings: Particle composition and size distribution as constrained by microwave observations. I - Radar observations
Cuzzi & Pollack
Icarus 33: 233-262, Feb 1978

Abstract: The radar backscattering characteristics of compositional and structural models of Saturn's rings are calculated and compared with observations of the absolute value, wavelength dependence, and degree of depolarization of the rings' radar cross section (reflectivity). The doubling method is used to calculate reflectivities for systems that are many particles thick using optical depths derived from observations at visible wavelengths. If the rings are many particles thick, irregular centimeter- to meter-sized particles composed primarily of water ice attain sufficiently high albedos and scattering efficiencies to explain the radar observations. In that case, the wavelength independence of radar reflectivity implies the existence of a broad particle size distribution; a narrower size distribution is also a possibility. Particles of primarily silicate composition are ruled out by the radar observations. Purely metallic particles may not be ruled out on the basis of existing radar observations. A monolayer of very large ice 'particles' that exhibit multiple internal scattering may not yet be ruled out.

Not only that, but when viewed in the near infrared, 0.3-0.7 μm, the rings look much redder, just like water ice.

The Composition of Saturn's Rings
Poulet & Cuzzi
Icarus 160(2): 350-358, Dec 2002

Abstract: A composite spectrum between 0.30 and 4.05 μm of Saturn's rings is analyzed using the Shkuratov scattering theory (Shkuratov et al. 1999, Icarus 137, 235-246). Several types of surface and composition are discussed. We demonstrate that both the strong reddening over the interval 0.3-0.7 μm and the water ice absorption features are well reproduced by an intimate ("salt-and-pepper'') mixture of four coarse particles of two different materials: 93% are grains (typical sizes of 10, 200, and 2000 μm) of water ice containing a few percent of refractory organic solid (tholin) impurities within their bulk, and 7% are coarse grains of a dark material (amorphous carbon). The cosmogenic implications of the inferred composition are discussed.

More detailed spectral analysis strengthens the conclusion that the rings are dominated by water ice, but also reveals that not all of the rings are made of the same stuff. Different rings have different mixes of water ice and minerals. And now we are dealing with both reflection & emission spectra, both of which agree with water ice spectra as observed in the laboratory.

Compositions of Saturn's rings A, B, and C from high resolution near-infrared spectroscopic observations
Poulet, et al.
Astronomy and Astrophysics 412: 305-316, Dec 2003

Abstract: We used the NASA IRTF spectrograph SpeX to obtain near-infrared spectra (0.9-5.4 mu m) of Saturn's rings, achieving spectral resolution lambda / Delta lambda of about 2000. The spatial resolution (about 1 arcsec) is sufficient to distinguish the three main ring components (A, B and C rings) from one another. These new observations of Saturn's rings are the first to combine an extended spectral range with high spectral resolution and good spatial resolution. We combined these data with recent photometric observations acquired by HST in the 0.3-1.0 mu m range. The spectra of the A band B rings are dominated by strong features due to crystalline water ice. The shape and the depth of these absorptions differ for each ring, which indicates different water ice grain sizes and abundances. No spectral evidence for volatile ices other than water ice has been detected. Both the lower albedo and the less blue slope in the near-infrared reflectance of the C ring indicate a concentration of dark material different from that in the A and B rings. The broader triangular Fresnel reflection peak at 3.1 mu m may support the presence of some amount of amorphous ice. The C ring spectrum exhibits bands centered at 1.73 and 3.4 mu m which agree in position quite well with the C-H bands. Although the detection is probable, it requires confirmation. With a radiative transfer model, we constrain the grain sizes and the relative abundances of water ice, a dark colorless component (amorphous carbon) to adjust the albedo and a second contaminant to reproduce the reddening in the UV-visible range represented here by organic tholins. The dark component of the C ring spectrum is included as an intra-mixture only. The cosmogenic implications of the inferred compositions are discussed.

Meanwhile, the Cassini spacecraft has gone right up the the E-ring and actually grabbed bits of it for analysis. Curious that they should find a lot of water ice, isn't it?

The composition of Saturn's E ring
Hillier, et al.
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 377(4): 1588-1596, June 2007

Abstract: We present the first in situ direct measurement of the composition of particles in Saturn's rings. The Cassini cosmic dust analyser (CDA) measured the mass spectra of nearly 300 impacting dust particles during the 2004 October E ring crossing. An initial interpretation of the data shows that the particles are predominantly water ice, with minor contributions from possible combinations of silicates, carbon dioxide, ammonia, molecular nitrogen, hydrocarbons and perhaps carbon monoxide. This places constraints on both the composition of Enceladus, the main source of the E ring, as well as the grain formation mechanisms.

And finally, a more complete analysis of the rings is presented, in both reflection & transmission of sunlight, over a full set of phase angles. Strange that the "plasma" of the rings seems to mimic mostly water ice in such tremendous detail, is it not?

The Composition of Saturn's Rings
Clark, et al.
American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2008, abstract #P32A-02, Dec 2008

Abstract: The Cassini spacecraft has obtained a unique collection of data about Saturn's rings, as it has observed the rings from 0 to 180 degrees in phase angle, and on both lit and unlit sides. Identification of trace contaminants, especially organic compounds, requires that spectra of the rings be uncontaminated by light from Saturn. The Cassini Visual and Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (VIMS) has acquired 0.35 to 5.1 micron, high spatial resolution spectroscopic data near the shadow of Saturn on the rings where scattered light is at a minimum. At low phase angles, the ring spectra show classic crystalline-ice spectral features except for a contaminant causing a UV absorption. VIMS spectra at 180-degree phase angle are generally flat, with only a weak positive feature at 2.86 microns in spectra of the F-ring. The general transmission decrease is due to large ring particles completely blocking light. The 2.86-micron feature indicates the presence of fine ice dust, where the ice's index of refraction is near 1.0, and light is not refracted or diffracted. There are no indications of interparticle scattering in the VIMS data at any phase angle. The lack of interparticle scattering indicates that the dense A and B rings must be very thin, approaching a monolayer, but rigorous constraints have yet to be modeled. Previous studies used tholins and amorphous carbon for the contaminant causing the UV absorption, but these models display additional absorptions and spectral structure in the near infrared not seen in VIMS data. Clark et al. (Icarus, v193, p372, 2008) modeled the changing blue peak and UV absorber observed on Phoebe, Iapetus, Hyperion, and Dione with amorphous carbon and nano-sized hematite. Nanohematite has muted spectral features compared to larger grained hematite, due to crystal field effects at the surfaces of small grains. Nanohematite has a strong UV absorber that matches the steep UV slope observed in spectra of Saturn's rings and has no strong IR absorptions. If the UV absorber in Saturn's rings is due to nanophase hematite then less than 1% hematite would be required, if it is uniformly mixed within the ice grains of the ring particle regoliths.

And finally, finally, the thermal emission from the rings depends on the solar elevation & phase angle, just as one would expect for ice particles and dust grains (and not expect for any conceivable plasma). In fact, the thermal emission even shows that it depends on how fast the ring particles spin (the faster spinning particles are more evenly illuminated for even heating, while the slower while the shaded side of slow spinners has time to cool).

Thermal observations of Saturn's main rings by Cassini CIRS: Phase, emission and solar elevation dependence
Altobelli, et al.
Planetary and Space Science 56(1): 134-146, Jan 2008

Abstract: Two and a half years after Saturn orbit insertion (SOI) the Cassini composite infrared spectrometer (CIRS) has acquired an extensive set of thermal measurements (including physical temperature and filling factor) of Saturn's main rings for a number of different viewing geometries, most of which are not available from Earth. Thermal mapping of both the lit and unlit faces of the rings is being performed within a multidimensional observation space that includes solar phase angle, spacecraft elevation and solar elevation. Comprehensive thermal mapping is a key requirement for detailed modeling of ring thermal properties. To first order, the largest temperature changes on the lit face of the rings are driven by variations in phase angle while differences in temperature with changing spacecraft elevation are a secondary effect. Ring temperatures decrease with increasing phase angle suggesting a population of slowly rotating ring particles [Spilker, L.J., Pilorz, S.H., Wallis, B.D., Pearl, J.C., Cuzzi, J.N., Brooks, S.M., Altobelli, N., Edgington, S.G., Showalter, M., Michael Flasar, F., Ferrari, C., Leyrat, C. 2006. Cassini thermal observations of Saturn's main rings: implications for particle rotation and vertical mixing. Planet. Space Sci. 54, 1167 1176, doi: 10.1016/j.pss.2006.05.033]. Both lit A and B rings show that temperature decreases with decreasing rings solar elevation while temperature changes in the C ring and Cassini Division are more muted. Variations in the geometrical filling factor, β, are primarily driven by changes in spacecraft elevation. For the optically thinnest region of the C ring, β variations are found to be nearly exclusively determined by spacecraft elevation. Both a multilayer and a monolayer model provide an excellent fit to the data in this region. In both cases, a ring infrared emissivity >0.9 is required, together with a random and homogeneous distribution of the particles. The interparticle shadowing function required for the monolayer model is very well constrained by our data and matches experimental measurements performed by Froidevaux [1981a. Saturn's rings: infrared brightness variation with solar elevation. Icarus 46, 4 17].

The rings of Saturn are not plasma.
The rings of Saturn are mostly water ice, with a mix of minerals.
The rings of Saturn do not all have the same composition.
This is a really silly thread.
 
Let me guess (since I can't see Sol88's posts): he posted a photo from one of Birkeland's terrella experiments and an image of Saturn and its rings, probably from Cassini?

And the Birkeland one shows a bright, vertical bar orthogonal to the rings, a feature absent in the Cassini (or whatever) image?

If so, then:

* one thing I was surprised by was that Birkeland seems to have missed the very obvious inconsistency between his experiment and Saturn's rings; namely, that the things in the former are self-luminous (you can see them clearly when the Sun is not shining), while the latter are not. This is surprising because, AFAIK, astronomers of the time knew very well that the rings shone only be reflected sunlight!

* but OK, maybe Birkeland didn't pay much attention to what astronomers wrote, in (to him) obscure journals; not so Sol88! My guess is he's likely seen at least one Cassini image, possibly saw it a dozen or more times, in which Saturn's rings are dark where they are in Saturn's shadow!! Whatever happened to critical thinking, Sol88?

* oh, and where is the bright, self-luminous bar, orthogonal to the rings, in the Cassini images, Sol88?
 
Let me guess (since I can't see Sol88's posts): he posted a photo from one of Birkeland's terrella experiments and an image of Saturn and its rings, probably from Cassini?

And the Birkeland one shows a bright, vertical bar orthogonal to the rings, a feature absent in the Cassini (or whatever) image?

If so, then:

1 * one thing I was surprised by was that Birkeland seems to have missed the very obvious inconsistency between his experiment and Saturn's rings; namely, that the things in the former are self-luminous (you can see them clearly when the Sun is not shining), while the latter are not. This is surprising because, AFAIK, astronomers of the time knew very well that the rings shone only be reflected sunlight!

* but OK, maybe Birkeland didn't pay much attention to what astronomers wrote, in (to him) obscure journals; not so Sol88! My guess is he's likely seen at least one Cassini image, possibly saw it a dozen or more times, in which Saturn's rings are dark where they are in Saturn's shadow!! Whatever happened to critical thinking, Sol88?

* oh, and where is the bright, self-luminous bar, orthogonal to the rings, in the Cassini images, Sol88?

1 FYI DRD,

041208095231.jpg

The shepherd moon Prometheus working its influence on the multi-stranded and kinked F ring.
LINK


080908092951.jpg
Cassini images reveal the existence of a faint arc of material orbiting with Saturn's small moon Anthe. (Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute)
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090303125120.jpg
This sequence of three images, obtained by NASA's Cassini spacecraft over the course of about 10 minutes, shows the path of a newly found moonlet in a bright arc of Saturn's faint G ring. (Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute)
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400px-Fig-257.jpg


600px-Fig-255c.jpg
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The Worlds in the Universe

From the conceptions to which our experimental analogies lead us, it is possible to form. in a natural manner, an interesting theory of the origin of the worlds. This theory differs from all earlier theories in that it assumes the existence of a universal directing force of electromagnetic origin in addition to the force of gravitation, in order to explain the formation round the sun of planets -- which have almost circular orbits and are almost in the same plane -- of moons and rings about the planets, and of spiral and annular nebulae. Even the newly-discovered, most distant moons of Jupiter and Saturn, with their retrograde revolution, do not place the theory in any doubtful light; on the contrary, the discovery would seem to predict that if planets are still discovered round the sun sufficiently far outside Neptune, they might also have a retrograde revolution.

Are Saturn's rings a purely mechanical phenomenon?
 
Apparently Sol doesn't know the meaning of the word "orthogonal" either. Or "shadow".
 
Are Saturn's rings a purely mechanical phenomenon?

Yes. We have measured the orbits (radius-vs-velocity) of the rings very precisely, and these data are a perfect match to ordinary gravitational orbits. They don't look like a plasma disk, nor a rigid solid disk, nor a cyclone, nor a bowler hat, nor a shock wave, nor any of the other disk-shaped phenomena that you might decide to post photos of. They look like ordinary gravitationally-orbiting particles, because that's what they are.
 
1 FYI DRD,

Are Saturn's rings a purely mechanical phenomenon?

with so much stupidity, one can only be speechless

However, what exactly are those images supposed to show?
NOT the vertical bar that DeiRenDopa is talking about
NOT that the rings of Saturn are made of plasma
NOT that the rings of Saturn are self illuminating
NOT that Sol88 has any notion about planetary physics

Solly, if you really want to show that the rings of Saturn are plasma then you need to show that the doppler shift caused by the rotation of the rings is consistent with the rotational velocity of Saturn instead of the Keplerian velocity (and yes there is a significant difference). However, because Birkeland did not do that, you are probably clueless as how to do that.
 

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