Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

[ben m]

Please excuse my denseness, but why dont they(ring particles) float in a cloud as opposed to being in a disc?
I would think that unless there is some preferential gravity effect around the equator(of a sphere!) that they would be randomly distributed.

A "sphere" as you've described it consists of many orbits which intersect one another. Particles on such orbits eventually collide; the result of such collisions is that the sphere eventually "averages out" into a ring or disk, in which setup (you will note) none of the particle orbits intersect any more.

 

[Sol88]

Circumstellar disks around young stars are analogous to the rings around Saturn

Good we understand that then!

try this on!

New Mechanism Explains Origins of Cometary Ingredients

Rocky planets like Earth are all believed to have begun as dust circling newly born stars, and clues about the origin of such dust comes to us in today’s meteorites and comets, as well as observations of circumstellar disks around young stars.

But mystery has shrouded the details of the evolution of dust and how it eventually comes to form larger objects. Now, two papers in the journal Nature are proposing a new mechanism to explain it.

Oh oh... Here comes mainstreams ad hoc!

wait for it

wait

Surfing dust grains!!!! cool dude!

And we all know of course that radiation pressure is far stronger than gravity on very small particles, seems photons are powerful little buggers!

Investigations have been focused so far only to the radiation pressure due to the starlight. The results showed that individual grains would not travel far and would be pushed deeper into the disk

Seems there still in the dark!

The question is how did the dust grains form?

 

[Sol88]

Ahhh the "X-Wind"!!!

Quote:
Rocky planets like Earth are all believed to have begun as dust circling newly born stars, and clues about the origin of such dust comes to us in today’s meteorites and comets, as well as observations of circumstellar disks around young stars.

But mystery has shrouded the details of the evolution of dust and how it eventually comes to form larger objects.

Rare Meteorites Linked to Mysterious "X-Wind"

Asteroid bits that fall to Earth may have been born in a hot flash with the Sun, not in the strip between Mars and Jupiter where most of the ancient space rocks currently reside, a new study says.

The finding lends support to a theory that says the solar system formed from the gravitational collapse of a gas and dust disk that created the Sun in a burst of high-impact sculpture while also winging off space objects across vast distances on a blast of energy called the X-wind.

That rare rocky recipe suggests the chondrites condensed out from a consistently superhot environment -- about 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit (1,370 degrees Celsius) -- such as a spinning protoplanetary disk giving birth to the Sun, rather than the ultracold Asteroid Belt that may only occasionally receive bolts of heat energy.

"As opposed to flash-heating models to create chondrules in the Asteroid Belt, we are looking at a much larger-scale thermal event in the inner solar system to form these objects," Meibom said.

A bolt of energy? Flash heating? What could they be alluding to?

"The scenario we are suggesting is that of big blobs of hot gas rising up through the disk -- almost like bubbles in boiling spaghetti sauce. As the gas bubbles rose and cooled, silicate and metal grains began to condense out of the gas. When these grains got close enough to the surface of the disk, they became trapped in the powerful jet streams. Days later, the particles arrived in the Asteroid Belt, where the relatively cold temperatures preserved them from destruction."

Could the more science knowledgeable people here translate the above parse, into something a little less tasty?

and for the ding ding dong moment!!

Most chondrules are made of chemistry that can only be produced at very high temperatures. The question is how you get there.

The conventional view is that chondrules started out as dust balls in the Asteroid Belt 4.56 billion years ago when its temperature was just below 700 degrees F (370 degrees C) -- quite hot for a place that is now deathly frigid, but not hot enough by itself to make chondrules. To do that, the dust balls were presumably zapped by quick bursts of lightning or shock waves that briefly raised temperatures to about 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C).

As the melted particles cooled, the thinking goes, they turned into millimeter-size chondrules, which eventually clumped together to form larger chondrites.

Now Meibom and Krot's rocks suggest another process for how chondrules form. "We are just saying this is an alternative and it's consistent with astronomical modeling of large-scale, very hot processes in the solar system," Meibom said.

Did I just read that correctly Tusenfem? And would those chondrites evenly go on to form asteroids, comets, moons and planets? That still hold a charge that when they spin produces a magnetic field and .... I think we've covered that already, have we not Tusenfem? such as HERE

Enter X-wind

As a disk contracts, it rotates faster and faster, funneling tons of interstellar dust toward the center, where temperatures reach 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C) or more -- hot enough to melt metal and vaporize most solids.

Umm....a plasma?

According to Shu's theory, dust particles were melted by the Sun, then launched into space by powerful jets of gas and solar wind called the X-wind. While in flight, the molten particles solidified into spherical chondrules, some of which landed in the Asteroid Belt a few days later. Others ended up as the raw materials that formed Earth, Mars and the rest of the planets in our solar system.

The X-wind? whats that?

All sounds very non standard to me!

So.....what happens to the dust grains in Saturn's rings?

 

[Tubbythin]

And if the collisions between the ring particles should retard and impart extra velocity to said particles, why don't the slower particles "fall" into Saturn's immense gravitational well, in conjunction with the other particles extra energy imparted on them thru collisions, escape Saturn's gravity well?

The collisions between particles will, in general, act to decrease their relative velocities. Ie, the exact opposite of what you suggest.

 

[Reality Check]

Ahhh the "X-Wind"!!!


Rare Meteorites Linked to Mysterious "X-Wind"

A bolt of energy? Flash heating? What could they be alluding to?

A bolt of energy like lightning. "Flash heating" = heating that happens in a flash. A flash is a short period of time.
But what "flash-heating models to create chondrules" actually is is the creation of chrondules that accrue to from asteroids and meteors. The source of the heating is things bumping together.

Could the more science knowledgeable people here translate the above parse, into something a little less tasty?

I will have a go.
Start by reading Formation and evolution of the Solar System. The protoplanetary disk is what the article you linked to is talking about. This is an environment that is hot enough to be above the boiling point of metals in places. This causes the hot blobs of gaseous metal that the authors mention.

and for the ding ding dong moment!!

Did I just read that correctly Tusenfem? And would those chondrites evenly go on to form asteroids, comets, moons and planets? That still hold a charge that when they spin produces a magnetic field and .... I think we've covered that already, have we not Tusenfem? such as HERE

ding ding dong Sol88 .
You have a disk of dense gas and water (as ice and gas) that rotates. There are various movements within the disk - jet streams and blobs. What does this remind you of Sol88?
It reminds me and the authors of thunderstorms but on a much larger scale - thus lightning.

Enter X-wind

Umm....a plasma?

Umm....probbaly not. That is a really low temperature for a plasma for what is described as a dense gas.

The X-wind? whats that?

You quoted it: "powerful jets of gas and solar wind".

All sounds very non standard to me!

It sounds "very non standard" to you because it is new to you.
The authors have a model for the formation of chondrites that is different from the flash heating model.

So.....what happens to the dust grains in Saturn's rings?

They go round and round in orbits.

What is your obsession with posting planetary and stellar physics in a cosmology thread?
Could it be because plasma cosmology is in such a pitiful state that there is nothing to say about it?

 

[Sol88]

What is your obsession with posting planetary and stellar physics in a cosmology thread?
Could it be because plasma cosmology is in such a pitiful state that there is nothing to say about it?

[/QUOTE]

No!

It's just so much fun to watch the flip flopping and the slow acceptance the dominate role plasma & electric currents play in the formation, maintenance and destruction of everything in this universe!

I mean, surfing dust grains?

You have a disk of dense gas and water (as ice and gas) that rotates. There are various movements within the disk - jet streams and blobs. What does this remind you of Sol88?
It reminds me and the authors of thunderstorms but on a much larger scale - thus lightning.

Why not the same phenomena for molecular clouds and the like? must be plenty of bumping and rubbn in there!!

Are you saying this can not happen RC?

And unlike your view of cosmology as a totally separate discipline to astronomy and planetary mechanics et cetera this is not the view by most UE/PC proponents! It is all interlinked and connected.

 

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Enter X-wind

Umm....a plasma?

Umm....probbaly not. That is a really low temperature for a plasma for what is described as a dense gas.

What to vaporize most solids? get with the program RC!

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The X-wind? whats that?

You quoted it: "powerful jets of gas and solar wind".

powerful jets of plasma and charged particles sounds a little better

 

[Sol88]

The collisions between particles will, in general, act to decrease their relative velocities. Ie, the exact opposite of what you suggest.

Ok so be it.

Then why dose, gravity the all powerful force, not just pull those grains onto the surface of Saturn?

 

[Sol88]

How does, gravity the all powerful, braid rings together?

http://www.solarviews.com/cap/sat/fring1.htm

Please explain RC? Tubythin?

 

[Dancing David]

Please excuse my denseness, but why dont they(ring particles) float in a cloud as opposed to being in a disc?
I would think that unless there is some preferential gravity effect around the equator(of a sphere!) that they would be randomly distributed.

I could see however, that if there was a plasma influence(hot gas) then you would get a distribution around the equator like an accretion disc. So that would mean the rings have been here as long as Saturn...... If thats what your saying....

Brant

That is interesting but makes little sense to me.

Whay would the particles orbit in a cloud?

If they came from a disrupted body of some sort then they would be concentrated in the plane.
Accretion disks are usually modeled as a gravitational phenomena.

Why a cloud?

And Saturn's rings are not plasma , they are mostly ice.

 

[Dancing David]

Good we understand that then!

try this on!

New Mechanism Explains Origins of Cometary Ingredients



Oh oh... Here comes mainstreams ad hoc!

wait for it

wait

Surfing dust grains!!!! cool dude!

[qimg]http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/protodisk_mozaik1.jpg[/qimg]

And we all know of course that radiation pressure is far stronger than gravity on very small particles, seems photons are powerful little buggers!




Seems there still in the dark!

The question is how did the dust grains form?

Um, where did you get the idea that radiation pressure is a new idea, you are rather dense aren't you?

'Pillars of creations' (effects of radiation pressure in some spots)
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080227.html

and my avatar are examples of the known radiation pressure
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060715.html

 

[Dancing David]

Ok so be it.

Then why dose, gravity the all powerful force, not just pull those grains onto the surface of Saturn?

In short momentum.

 

[Reality Check]

What to vaporize most solids? get with the program RC!

Energy melts solids, e.g from impacts. get with the program Sol88!

powerful jets of plasma and charged particles sounds a little better

Powerful gets of gas (not plasma), charged particles and uncharged particles is the actual physical situation.

 

[Reality Check]

No!

It's just so much fun to watch the flip flopping and the slow acceptance the dominate role plasma & electric currents play in the formation, maintenance and destruction of everything in this universe!

I mean, surfing dust grains?


Why not the same phenomena for molecular clouds and the like? must be plenty of bumping and rubbn in there!!

Are you saying this can not happen RC?

And unlike your view of cosmology as a totally separate discipline to astronomy and planetary mechanics et cetera this is not the view by most UE/PC proponents! It is all interlinked and connected.

Actually it is more fun for us.

Your ignorance of the fact that scientists know that plasma & electric currents can dominate in certain small scale situations means that you come up with some interesting facts in standard astronomy.
There is no general dominance of plasma or electric currents.

A pity that none of them hove nothing to do with the non-science of plasma cosmology.

And yes "bumping and rubbn" does happen in protostellar clouds and does cause lightning - just like in thunderstorms.

UE/PC proponents are nuts if they think that planetary mechanics et cetera are cosmology. Why not quantum mechanic as well?

ETA:
Further on the nuttiness of UE/PC proponents as expressed by Sol88.
Somebody states that because the Moon orbits the Earth through the domination of gravity and that is evidence for the the Big Bang Theory.
Do you agree Sol88?

In that case most if not all of the science that you have posted is "evidence" for BBT!

• Impact craters om Mercury.
• Impact craters on the Moon.
• Saturn's ring.
• Protostellar disks.

 

[Reality Check]

Ok so be it.

Then why dose, gravity the all powerful force, not just pull those grains onto the surface of Saturn?

Then why dose, gravity the all powerful force, not just pull those satellites onto the surface of Earth?

 

[Reality Check]

How does, gravity the all powerful, braid rings together?

http://www.solarviews.com/cap/sat/fring1.htm

Please explain RC? Tubythin?

You really need to learn to use the internet. There are lots of interesting thngs on it.
Rings of Saturn

In 1980, Voyager 1 made a fly-by of Saturn that showed the F-ring to be composed of three narrow rings that appeared to be braided in a complex structure; it is now known that the outer two rings consist of knobs, kinks and lumps that give the illusion of braiding, with the less bright third ring lying inside them.

(no citation so be a little sceptical)

The dynamics of the F ring as (IMHO) more complex than the other rings due to the influence of its shepherd moons (Prometheus and Pandora) and moonlets (e.g. The determination of the structure of Saturn's F ring by nearby moonlets).

ETA: Found an applicable paper - The production of “braids” in Saturn's F ring

 

[brantc]

A "sphere" as you've described it consists of many orbits which intersect one another. Particles on such orbits eventually collide; the result of such collisions is that the sphere eventually "averages out" into a ring or disk, in which setup (you will note) none of the particle orbits intersect any more.

Why does this disc orbit around the equator?

Why are there not several discs at different angles like some of the moons in the solar system?

If I were to drop a particle into a polar orbit around an AIRLESS body, would you expect it to move into an equatorial orbit? Why?

if there was a random cloud of particles around an airless body, wouldnt you expect some of them to remain non collisional?? In their original orbit?

"In this image of the F ring, taken shortly after its ring particles encountered the shepherd moon Prometheus, the disruption to the ring caused by the moon is evident."
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sat_04_20/s11_12143_10.jpg

Why doesnt the moon destroy the F ring? That image looks like waves in a medium..... If it was strictly collisional averaging I would expect scattering by collision with the moon.. AND direct collisions....

Maybe this explains it.

On The Braids and Spokes in Saturn's Ring System.
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1981M&P....24..431H&classic=YES
PDF on the bottom of page.

Bunch of Saturn ring pics.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/cassinis_continued_mission.html

 

[Sol88]

Then why dose, gravity the all powerful force, not just pull those satellites onto the surface of Earth?

you don't know?

 

[Reality Check]

you don't know?

I do. Don't you?

 

[Sol88]

RC wrote:

And yes "bumping and rubbn" does happen in protostellar clouds and does cause lightning - just like in thunderstorms.

End of story there RC!!!

Please tell us more of what you know wrt lightning in molecular clouds.

but remember what Tim Thompson said!

this should be very entertaining.