Planned Parenthood Aids Pimp's Underage Sex Ring

[A Laughing Baby]

For that matter, by the argument presented here, priests should be obligated to report any crimes heard in confessional instead of offering absolution. Perhaps a video investigation is in order.

 

[TraneWreck]

Here is a good opinion piece on the matter.

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/please_young_conservatives_please_start_fcking_while_sober/

(For some reason I can't copy/paste excerpts from that blog)

It links to a rundown of the newest enfant terrible of the "malicious and deceptive video editing" wing of the conservative movement:

Anti-abortion activist Lila Rose said at last weekend's Value Voters Summit that as long as abortions are legal, they should be "done in the public square," thus disgusting people into action. And then "we might hear angels singing as we ponder the glory of conception."

http://mediamatters.org/research/201102010048

There was some discussion earlier as to whether she could be considered a conservative activist. I think she's more than dedicated herself to those causes.

 

[Rufo]

[...]
All you manage to do when forcing PP to report is scare girls and young women from going to them for help. Yes, it's horrible that they've been raped, but intimidating them from seeking medical help solves nothing.
[...]

No, that is not all you do. You make sure the people most likely to be confided in help stopping the crimes from happening again. Even knowing that the crimes may be reported, people will still go to organizations like Planned Parenthood for help. In some cases, they may have no choice.

In the end, it does constitute a moral dilemma. Do you think the judgement of which crimes should be reported or not should be left to Planned Parenthood? Or do you think they should be prevented from reporting crimes at all?

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I think his point is that while they should be encouraged to report it, their primary duty is to provide medical care to people in need.

 

[I Ratant]

Hey, it's hard out there for a pimp.


Or so I've heard.

.
Couple gals got arrested here for asking an undercover cop to be their pimp.

 

[Rufo]

I think his point is that while they should be encouraged to report it, their primary duty is to provide medical care to people in need.

Certainly. The question is how much should be sacrificed to extend that duty to as many people as possible. As long as they are encouraged to report crimes, people who are afraid or ashamed may avoid seeking help there. But they are also in a unique position to report the crimes of victims who do seek help despite this.

Live Action's position, that it would be better if they were not there to provide medical help or report crimes, seems outright ridiculous.

 

[Babbylonian]

No, that is not all you do. You make sure the people most likely to be confided in help stopping the crimes from happening again. Even knowing that the crimes may be reported, people will still go to organizations like Planned Parenthood for help. In some cases, they may have no choice.

It's good that you can be so certain of that. I'm certainly not. Rape is already an under-reported crime because victims are afraid of the potential stigma attached. It seems to me that requiring counselors (whether they work for PP or not) to report those crimes would deter victims from seeking the help they need, unless you propose that the counselors lie to their clients about whether or not they'll report the crime to the police...which of course would ruin any existing trust, upon which counseling depends.

There are already laws in place regarding reporting abuse of minor victims and I would hope that PP personnel are aware of those laws and follow them. In the case that started this discussion, however, there were only hypothetical/potential (well, imaginary, but we only know that because we've got the rest of the story) victims and even if the PP employee went right to the police, trying to find a possible pimp who likely gave a fake name (if any) would be a complicated process at best.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Certainly. The question is how much should be sacrificed to extend that duty to as many people as possible. As long as they are encouraged to report crimes, people who are afraid or ashamed may avoid seeking help there. But they are also in a unique position to report the crimes of victims who do seek help despite this.

Live Action's position, that it would be better if they were not there to provide medical help or report crimes, seems outright ridiculous.

I agree. That's pretty much my stance on it. They are in a unique and difficult circumstance--how to provide care and report criminal activity without driving away the victims.

 

[I Ratant]

For that matter, by the argument presented here, priests should be obligated to report any crimes heard in confessional instead of offering absolution. Perhaps a video investigation is in order.

.
I'm for that.
There's a "sin", which can be "forgiven" with the proper penance.
But there's also the crime, which has to be reported, whoever is the person confessing the "sin" to a priest.
Cardinal Mahony seems to be immune to that logic.

 

[I Ratant]

I think his point is that while they should be encouraged to report it, their primary duty is to provide medical care to people in need.

.
Yes, but when the need is due to abuse, then it must be reported.

 

[Ziggurat]

For that matter, by the argument presented here, priests should be obligated to report any crimes heard in confessional instead of offering absolution.

Obviously not. The law requires reporting knowledge of some crimes, not any crime. Furthermore, the priest-penitent privilege is something that the courts (not the legislature) have established on freedom of religion grounds. Whether or not that privilege is justified, it is still now a matter of law, and no such privilege has been established (by legislation or the courts) for Planned Parenthood.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Obviously not. The law requires reporting knowledge of some crimes, not any crime. Furthermore, the priest-penitent privilege is something that the courts (not the legislature) have established on freedom of religion grounds. Whether or not that privilege is justified, it is still now a matter of law, and no such privilege has been established (by legislation or the courts) for Planned Parenthood.

Which is interesting--not trying to start a political argument here, I genuinely find this interesting--since you would assume that doctor-patient privilege would extend to an organization that provides medical services. I'm ignorant of the law on this--is it because it's a clinic?

 

[TraneWreck]

Certainly. The question is how much should be sacrificed to extend that duty to as many people as possible. As long as they are encouraged to report crimes, people who are afraid or ashamed may avoid seeking help there. But they are also in a unique position to report the crimes of victims who do seek help despite this.

Again, as a lawyer I'm in a much better position to report crimes because I know where all the evidence is. I can use my expert legal knowledge to obtain exactly the information I would need to convict my client.

We have decided as a society, however, that there is a fundamental right to counsel and the only way that right can be secured is with full confidentiality. In other words, the service I provide is more important than simply convicting someone.

I think the same is true of medical professionals. Even though they could obtain important information, their services as health care providers are more important than just convicting people--even horrible rapists and pimps.

PP personnell should counsel such people, show them how to report the crime and even help them do so if that's what the victim chooses to do, but first and foremost they should deal with the health issue in front of them.

I would gladly support an expenditure of funds for a safe-house or other kind of immediate security for women in such situations. Once they know they're safe, many more would report the crime, but this sort of victim intimidation (which is really what all these laws are about--to make people feel ashamed for getting an abortion or putting up enough road blocks that it doesn't happen) only increases the likelihood of disease and children born into horrific situations.

Live Action's position, that it would be better if they were not there to provide medical help or report crimes, seems outright ridiculous.

Yes, whatever the answer is, that isn't it.

It's good that you can be so certain of that. I'm certainly not. Rape is already an under-reported crime because victims are afraid of the potential stigma attached. It seems to me that requiring counselors (whether they work for PP or not) to report those crimes would deter victims from seeking the help they need, unless you propose that the counselors lie to their clients about whether or not they'll report the crime to the police...which of course would ruin any existing trust, upon which counseling depends.

There are already laws in place regarding reporting abuse of minor victims and I would hope that PP personnel are aware of those laws and follow them. In the case that started this discussion, however, there were only hypothetical/potential (well, imaginary, but we only know that because we've got the rest of the story) victims and even if the PP employee went right to the police, trying to find a possible pimp who likely gave a fake name (if any) would be a complicated process at best.

These are good points.

 

[tyr_13]

Where is the condemnation of the local police and FBI for not following through on a reported underage sex ring? Surely they should be in much, much more hot water for this than PP, because it's actually the job of the law enforcement.

Was the film maker interviewed by the police? By the FBI? Why not?

Those trying to make this out as a problem for PP are missing the much more important failure, if there is a failure here at all.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Where is the condemnation of the local police and FBI for not following through on a reported underage sex ring? Surely they should be in much, much more hot water for this than PP, because it's actually the job of the law enforcement.

Was the film maker interviewed by the police? By the FBI? Why not?

Those trying to make this out as a problem for PP are missing the much more important failure, if there is a failure here at all.

It's SOP for the FBI to not comment on the status (or even existence) of ongoing investigations, so it's impossible to know if they actually began an investigation or not. Dead end.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's not the job of the health care provider.

According to the law, it is the job of the health care provider. It is a legal obligation.

All you manage to do when forcing PP to report is scare girls and young women from going to them for help.

That's purely speculation on your part. If they don't want the person raping them to get caught, all they have to do is either lie (Planned Parenthood is not obligated to investigate) or just not say anything. Do you have any actual evidence that reporting requirements do more harm than good?

Yes, it's horrible that they've been raped, but intimidating them from seeking medical help solves nothing.

And simply letting the rape continue... that's such a better solution.

There's one case of statutory rape I'm personally familiar with. A father raped two of his daughters, repeatedly. Got them pregnant, too. They had abortions. He was never caught. They're grown up now, both had severely screwed up personal lives, and one of them eventually committed suicide. The fact that they could get essentially no-questions-asked abortions prolonged the abuse, it didn't "solve" anything. "Medical help" was no real help at all.

As a lawyer I've had many clients confess their crimes to me. It's a very odd position to be in as I've often possessed information that could easily convict an actual criminal. I am obligated, however, to keep that information confidential and make the state prove their case.

It would be illegal for you to give this information to the prosecutor, even though doing so could help insure that a guilty person gets punished for their crimes. You recognize that it's unacceptable for YOU to break the law for purposes of expediency. But you want Planned Parenthood to be able to do so?

There are certain principles that must be held higher than just outcome if just process is to be maintained.

Which is why it should outrage you that Planned Parenthood flagrantly violated the legal process. Curiously, it doesn't.

Similarly, health care providers should not be charged with the additional duty to be law enforcement officials.

They aren't. They only report. They do not investigate, they do not prosecute. That in no way makes them law enforcement officials.

Sometimes humans are presented with situations where the law runs contrary to their understanding of morality.

What perverse morality thinks it's better to just let a girl continue to be raped?

 

[Ziggurat]

There are already laws in place regarding reporting abuse of minor victims and I would hope that PP personnel are aware of those laws and follow them.

They haven't in the past. They seem to have learned something from those earlier failures and the bad publicity it created, though exactly how well they complied with the requirements of the law in the present case remains uncertain.

 

[Rufo]

It's good that you can be so certain of that. I'm certainly not. Rape is already an under-reported crime because victims are afraid of the potential stigma attached. It seems to me that requiring counselors (whether they work for PP or not) to report those crimes would deter victims from seeking the help they need, unless you propose that the counselors lie to their clients about whether or not they'll report the crime to the police...which of course would ruin any existing trust, upon which counseling depends.

I am absolutely not claiming certainty that all victims will seek help. Maybe not even most. I understand the problem, and it's not a simple situation. What I'm saying is that finding a balance that works is difficult. As long as there is any risk of a counselor reporting the crime – that is, basically, as long as they allowed to report them – victims will be afraid to seek help. However, this would mean that counselors would be forced to stay silent, even against their and anyone's better judgement.

Again, as a lawyer I'm in a much better position to report crimes because I know where all the evidence is. I can use my expert legal knowledge to obtain exactly the information I would need to convict my client.

We have decided as a society, however, that there is a fundamental right to counsel and the only way that right can be secured is with full confidentiality. In other words, the service I provide is more important than simply convicting someone.

I think the same is true of medical professionals. Even though they could obtain important information, their services as health care providers are more important than just convicting people--even horrible rapists and pimps.

It's true that their primary duty is to provide health care, but do you really think they should be prevented from reporting any crime? I understand that from your experience as a lawyer, you see the benefit of full confidentiality, but Planned Parenthood may still be dealing with different situations.

Looking at where this discussion started, this to some degree about children. Decisions are frequently made on their behalf, in an effort to care for them. I have no problem understanding that the fear that stops adults from reporting these crimes extends to children as well, perhaps to an even greater degree. But that is exactly why the decision to report the crimes is not easily left to them.

PP personnell should counsel such people, show them how to report the crime and even help them do so if that's what the victim chooses to do, but first and foremost they should deal with the health issue in front of them.

I would gladly support an expenditure of funds for a safe-house or other kind of immediate security for women in such situations. Once they know they're safe, many more would report the crime, but this sort of victim intimidation (which is really what all these laws are about--to make people feel ashamed for getting an abortion or putting up enough road blocks that it doesn't happen) only increases the likelihood of disease and children born into horrific situations.

Fundamentally, I agree that the real issue is that victims feel afraid or ashamed to report the crimes themselves. That is the root of the problem, and we should make every effort to change that. But I do not believe that these laws are en effort to exploit these feelings. Rather, they are an attempt to work around them. If they demonstrably do not work, they should be reconsidered. Still, finding a way to balance the temporary safety of the victims by caring for their health and the long-term safety by bringing these crimes to light will remain an issue.

 

[Bill Thompson]

do you mean "Ads" instead of "Aids"?

 

[tyr_13]

It's SOP for the FBI to not comment on the status (or even existence) of ongoing investigations, so it's impossible to know if they actually began an investigation or not. Dead end.

True, but those spouting off about PP likely don't know that, and it doesn't let the local police off the hook. Perhaps the police did look into it, but to even acknowledge that would be to admit that PP did the right thing by notifying the police.