PETER HUBINKSY, I WALK THE LINE

webfusion said:
While he is walking in this specific area (at the mall near the RR tracks), and a train comes by, would the debris carried along and deposited after the rushing movement of the passing train be considered a paranormal thing?

If your car gets stuck while attempting to cross a train track and a train is approaching, unfasten your safety belt, get out of the vehicle and move away from the tracks. Run a safe distance from the track in the direction of the train, in order to avoid flying debris.

Sorry for the derail... (pun intended)
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I think the debris discussed in that advice refers primarily to the remains of your vehicle after the train strikes it. Debris from your car can be avoided in this way, since it will all originate at the stuck location and travel in the direction the train is moving. If a train naturally moved a great deal of debris throughout its route, traveling towards it (given your slow relative speed) wouldn't greatly decrease the amount flying at you when it comes near.

Oh, and did anyone catch my proof that P = NP before the server went down? Ah well, maybe I'll remember it again someday.
 
jmercer said:
Idiot savants are pretty well documented, I believe; and while they don't have paranormal abilities, they have amazing (often useless) talents. Yet they are "normal" by no stretch of the imagination. If someone could actually speak with the dead, or see the future, etc... would such an ability make them crazy by our standards? They certainly wouldn't view the world the way we do...
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The flip side of this observation however, is that, well, idiot savants are pretty well-documented, and while their personalities may be wildly out of the "norm," their abilities and talents are observable. The required affidavit isn't supposed to be a "certificate of sanity" for the person involved, but a "certificate of credibility." As in, "yes, I've seen this person do the wierd things he claims he can do, and I believe in his abilities."

The problem, fundamentally, is that many of the sort of people who would apply for the JREF test are not in a position to assess the validity of their own beliefs. (I would argue that, in fact, no one is in that position, which is why science has evolved the way it has.)
 
It doesn't even have to be, "yes, I've seen this person do the weird things he claims he can do, and I believe in his abilities." All that's necessary IMO is, "yes, I've seen this person do the weird things he claims he can do," period. It would be sufficient to have three people say, "Yeah, I've seen him do this weird thing, and I have no idea how he does it, nor do I particularly care, I'm not some kind of True Believer or disciple or something, but yeah, I've seen him do it."

I think that's all Kramer is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable request, given the vast numbers of people out there who do seriously believe that they have some kind of strange ability or power. You need to have some kind of first step, an "audition", to weed out the potentially interesting from the merely fantasizing.
 
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Goshawk said:
It doesn't even have to be, "yes, I've seen this person do the weird things he claims he can do, and I believe in his abilities." All that's necessary IMO is, "yes, I've seen this person do the weird things he claims he can do," period. It would be sufficient to have three people say, "Yeah, I've seen him do this weird thing, and I have no idea how he does it, nor do I particularly care, I'm not some kind of True Believer or disciple or something, but yeah, I've seen him do it."

I think that's all Kramer is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable request, given the vast numbers of people out there who do seriously believe that they have some kind of strange ability or power. You need to have some kind of first step, an "audition", to weed out the potentially interesting from the merely fantasizing.
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Agree fully.

For crying out aloud, American Idol has a more thorough weeding out process.

I repeat my earlier statement: If any of these claimants had the goods they'd be calling all the media to witness their "powers" and raking in the moolah at the same time. The fact that they don't speaks volumes about their claims.

Regards,
 
Moochie said:
For crying out aloud, American Idol has a more thorough weeding out process.
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That gives me a great idea. If I ever apply and get asked for affidavits, I'll see if I can get Simon, Paula, and Randy to sign for me :)
 
Francois Tremblay said:
I give up. I guess it must be a matter of pride for the skeptics somehow.
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No, it has nothing to do with "pride", and everything to do with "practicality".

Look, just as a hypothetical for-instance, let's say there are 5,000 people out there in America who believe they have the power to lift their living room couch with the power of their mind. That's not an unreasonable supposition, in a population of 300 million or so.

And let's suppose that 10% of those 5,000 people believed strongly enough in their abilities to write a letter to JREF claiming the Million Dollar Prize. That is also not an unreasonable supposition, that 10% of a given group would do that.

So, now, what if every one of those 500 people wrote a letter to JREF claiming the Million Dollar Prize, saying, "I can lift my living room couch with the power of my mind"? Do you think Kramer should obediently go about setting up testing protocols for every one of those people--just on their own say-so?

There aren't enough hours in the day, Francois. It just isn't physically possible. If each testing protocol takes a week, say, to set up and implement, that's 500 weeks, or 10 years, that Kramer would be testing people who say they can lift their living room couch with the power of their mind. So where does that leave time for the people who say they can dowse for water? Or the mediums? Or the ESP specialists? Or the alien contactees?

It's just a matter of logistics, of making best use of the resources available.

You have to have some kind of weeding-out procedure.

Even if only 5 of those people wrote a letter, that means that Kramer has to invest 5 weeks of time in testing them, just on their own say-so, if he doesn't require any kind of audition. I might add to the American Idol comparison that even The Gong Show held auditions.
 
Francois Tremblay said:
The former.
Probably, but as skeptics you're supposed to be open-minded to the possibility of being disproven. As such, crackpots are as likely to have "paranormal power" as anyone else, and should not be discarded out of hand. Perhaps the outlandishness of the claim should be the sole standard to give it the brush-off.
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The outlandishness of the claim is what makes it paranormal, so even if filtering on outlandishness satisfied you personally, there would be someone else who would complain that that was a procedure likely to filter out real paranormal abilities, should such exist.
I don't see how asking for some verification that the claimed effect exists is not being open-minded to having the claim proven.
If someone other than the applicant can observe an effect, then perhaps it can be proven, regardless of how outlandish the claim may be.
If no one else can observe it, then how is it going to be proven, in any case?
 
Affadavits

Also known as "depositions" --- these are generally very difficult to obtain by the average person, for anything at all.

Try it.

Prepare three depositions, stating that you live at your current address.
Go up to three strangers. A random doctor (good luck getting one to see you at all without an appointment). A random car mechanic. A random hotel front desk clerk. A random hairdresser. All professionals, who are assumed to be honest and accurate in their dealings with the public.

Will they sign the legal document, or even more to the point, will they agree to accompany you to your house to verify your statement?

(BTW, an all-purpose "General Agreement" is available to be purchased at any Office Depot store, under the brand-name 'Socrates').
 
webfusion said:
Also known as "depositions" --- these are generally very difficult to obtain by the average person, for anything at all.

Try it.

Prepare three depositions, stating that you live at your current address.
Go up to three strangers. A random doctor (good luck getting one to see you at all without an appointment). A random car mechanic. A random hotel front desk clerk. A random hairdresser. All professionals, who are assumed to be honest and accurate in their dealings with the public.

Will they sign the legal document, or even more to the point, will they agree to accompany you to your house to verify your statement?

(BTW, an all-purpose "General Agreement" is available to be purchased at any Office Depot store, under the brand-name 'Socrates').
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So instead, I ask my friend the auto mechanic, my postman, and my buddies at the model airplane club. 5 minutes, 5 "depositions"
Not hard, unless you are so flaky you have no friends.
 
You can also get your neighbours to sign the depositions (I live where I do, I have strange powers). If they will not help you then I do not think Jref should either.
 
rwguinn said:
So instead, I ask my friend the auto mechanic, my postman, and my buddies at the model airplane club. 5 minutes, 5 "depositions"
Not hard, unless you are so flaky you have no friends.
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Well I actually only have a few friends... and they're just students like me.

I imagine it can be tricky to convince "professional" strangers to come on over to my place sometime to witness my special super powers...
 
Yes, but they'd probably think I'm pulling their legs. "I have no time for your jokes."

Ah, maybe not. I don't know... maybe I should try and find out. :p
 
I'm with Geni

How can an applicant be considered 'wasting the JREF's time' just because he doesn't have evidence of his abilities? No kidding he doesn't have evidence. I doubt that even if he did have "evidence" that anybody here would find it credible anyway. Did then every applicant who has ever been tested also 'waste the JREF's time' when they could not demonstrate their abilities?!
 
Either
a) He will have the ability and shown his ability to other people and so can produce the evidence Jref requires.
b) Never demonstated their skills to anyone, so their skills exist only in their imagination. Waste of time to apply.
Yes, a lot of time and effort has been wasted because of previous applications. If a person does not have the ability then I say it is a waste of time to apply. Like applying for a job where you do not have the skills for it and putting in your application that you do have the skills.
 
petre said:
To try and better phrase his ability, if he walks through an area with small debris, additional debris will materialize and/or debris will move around at random.
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That's the weirdedst superpower IU've ever heard of. I'm guessing the X-Men aren't rushing to recruit him.
 
Francois Tremblay said:
that is a very elitist and ridiculous position. Most of us do NOT know three "professionals" well enough to have them sign about "paranormal abilities
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Isn't that the point? The JREF want to see affidavits from people who are not your best friends, and in line to share in one million dollars should your claim be proven. They want to see affidavits from people who are likely to be skeptical of your claim prior to your demonstration.
 
And another one, gone with the wind...

I SOOO much would have liked to hear his explanation for his method of double-blind testing.

And, of course, the hardships of getting three affidavits.

Well, at least the railroad tracks of the world will remain less bedraggled.
 
Or not.



Mr. Hubinsky if you read this: Stop the talk! Walk the walk!

Make with the Nike commercial and JUST DO IT!
 
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