PETA and Foie Gras

cornsail said:
I haven't researched the topic enough yet to have an opinion on American foie gras farms. I think all factory farms are inhumane, but I do not know if these farms are significantly more inhumane than normal duck and chicken farms.

If you're against the Canadian farms, but in favor of the American farms, then you must concede these laws do both some harm and some good. They won't shut the Canadian farms down, but they will reduce imports from said farms significantly.
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No, I don't concede these laws do "some good" when they demonize all foie gras production because of the conditions of some foie gras farms outside the jurisdiction of the United States. Once again, that's like saying locking up all black people because some black people commit crimes does some good because it gets some criminals off the street. If some producers outside the United States are using inhumane methods, you set strict import standards that must be met before foie gras can be imported. You don't pass laws that demonize four farms in America that have nothing to do with the Canadian farms.
 
I find it interesting that the summary of the anti side here is "I don't know enough about it so it should be banned".
 
I find this statement from an anti-foie gras activist telling:

Source: http://www.nofoiegras.org/
Farm Sanctuary and Global Action Network have just released new video footage taken by an undercover investigator of two more foie gras factory farms in Canada taken by an undercover investigator. In addition to the footage taken at Elevages Perigord released in July of this year, this new footage documents farm employees taking part in cruel or torturous acts on animals, in addition to the inherently cruel forced feeding that the animals endure daily. Combined these three foie gras factories make up 82% of the foie gras sold in Canada and 72% of the foie gras that is imported into the US.
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May I point out that, even if these statistics are correct, just because 72% of the foie gras that is imported into the U.S. comes from Canada, that does not indicate that the majority of foie gras consumed in America comes from Canada, nor does it indicate that one cannot consciously purchase foie gras made at Hudson Valley and other humane farms.
 
This thread has inspired me to finally take a stand on foie gras. I'm definitely going to try it next weekend!
 
Babbylonian said:
This thread has inspired me to finally take a stand on foie gras. I'm definitely going to try it next weekend!
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If you're going to eat meat, why not give it a try?

Veal too. Don't limit yourself just because it's a confined baby cow.

And don't listen to the naysayers ... there's plenty of sharks in the ocean. One more bowl of shark fin soup isn't going to cause any extinctions.

Go for it dude!
 
citizenzen said:
If you're going to eat meat, why not give it a try?

Veal too. Don't limit yourself just because it's a confined baby cow.

And don't listen to the naysayers ... there's plenty of sharks in the ocean. One more bowl of shark fin soup isn't going to cause any extinctions.

Go for it dude!
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I love veal, particularly when prepared with German techniques. I've nearly tried shark fin soup a few times but have always passed because of the expense (I have issues with paying more than $5-6 for a bowl of soup). Frankly though, given what I've read about shark fin soup, I don't think I'd eat it at this point...not because of potential endangerment of the overall shark population, but because supposedly the fin itself has little-to-no flavor and it's all about the texture. It seems to me that if you're going to eat something rare and/or expensive, it ought to be delicious.

In the area of food I have no ethical standards beyond not eating humans. With everything else, I'm concerned almost entirely with flavor.

Redfarmer: You can be sure I'll check in again after I've had my meal. :)
 
Babbylonian said:
In the area of food I have no ethical standards beyond not eating humans. With everything else, I'm concerned almost entirely with flavor.
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Why limit yourself to food?

Why apply ethical standards to your clothes? Or energy usage? Or anything?

If you want to "consume" it, what does it matter?
 
citizenzen said:
Why limit yourself to food?
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Human conceit, most likely.
Why apply ethical standards to your clothes?
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I don't (except perhaps by default because I'm cheap and wear clothes until they seriously wear out). That's an odd one to include!
Or energy usage?
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Because I feel that whatever energy I save is of eventual, if tiny, benefit to my fellow humans.
Or anything?
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That's a catch-all that covers way too much ground of course, but for the most part my ethics come down to doing what I can not to hurt other human beings. See my first sentence above.
If you want to "consume" it, what does it matter?
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It matters when I decide it matters and/or when someone else convinces me it does. It's unlikely anyone will ever convince me to care overly much about baby cows and ducks, though I'm always willing to listen to the arguments of those with whom I disagree. That's part of the reason I've been watching this thread. So far I'm unconvinced, but who knows what tomorrow will bring?

ETA: FWIW, the main reason I posted today is that I feel like the unrepentant, amoral meat eater has been under-represented. ;)
 
Cain said:
And they live longer too. Also, I heard that on these farms every duck gets a pony.
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I think you're confusing life expectancy with longevity.

If giving them a pony makes them more delicious, I'm all for it. ;)

Gavage has been going on for 5000 years. There's nothing wrong with the practice.
 
redfarmer said:
You posted a lot of generalized claims from your video right underneath people who had commented on the Village Voice article, which makes it clear that, at least in the case of Hudson Valley, these conditions do not apply. You also expressed "surprise" no one had commented on your video.
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Just because my post was under the article doesn't mean it was in response to it. And yeah I was surprised (I don't know what you're implying by putting that word in quotes), because we'd just spent some time discussing the previous video and you'd mentioned a browser issue which implied you were trying to watch it. I was also somewhat expecting RandFan to comment.

If you call questioning whether you had read the article "trolling" then you have a strange definition of trolling.
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Asking me over and over and repeatedly saying that my posts are irrelevant to something they aren't even in response to I will admit isn't necessarily intentional trolling, but it is annoying. You were fairly pleasant to have a discussion with at first.
 
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BTW I have been planning on reading the article and commenting on the article if you're still interested in my opinion, but I feel things are turning hostile here.
 
cornsail said:
BTW I have been planning on reading the article and commenting on the article if you're still interested in my opinion, but I feel things are turning hostile here.
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Not that it matters but I sincerely would like to see your opinion. I've been mostly lurking. This is something I've been involved with on JREF for nearly 10 years now. Mumblethrax and I have had some real knock down drag out battales. :) I'd like to think we are both better for it. I really do care about the opinions of people like you. I suspect that America, and modern liberal democracies in general, will move more and more to a vegan diet. Part of me finds that a bit troublesome but part of me is enthused. The horrors of factory farming are a worthy thing to stop. I guess I'm somewhat conflicted.

Thanks.

RandFan
 
cornsail said:
BTW I have been planning on reading the article and commenting on the article if you're still interested in my opinion, but I feel things are turning hostile here.
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Probably because you're unresponsive and not presenting very good numbers.

If 75% of US foie gras comes from Canada and US exports account for 30% of the foie gras coming from Quebec, approximately 8 million francophones eat almost twice as much foie gras as the entire United States. :boggled:
 
Those who can become vegetarians and vegans are those that can afford, financially and physically, to do so.
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arnt you ignoring the fact that the majority of the worlds vegetarians (mostly Hindus) and large part if not majority of vegans (mostly Jains) live in India? I dont have exact statistics on income but I kinda doubt these are folks one would consider economically "privileged". I'll concede the relatively rare health exception but such cases hardly dictate what may be the more humane choice for the majority of other individuals.
 
Not that it matters but I sincerely would like to see your opinion. I've been mostly lurking. This is something I've been involved with on JREF for nearly 10 years now. Mumblethrax and I have had some real knock down drag out battales. I'd like to think we are both better for it. I really do care about the opinions of people like you. I suspect that America, and modern liberal democracies in general, will move more and more to a vegan diet. Part of me finds that a bit troublesome but part of me is enthused. The horrors of factory farming are a worthy thing to stop. I guess I'm somewhat conflicted.

Thanks.

RandFan
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Appreciated.

Furcifer said:
Probably because you're unresponsive and not presenting very good numbers.
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What is it that you would like me to respond to that I haven't?

If 75% of US foie gras comes from Canada and US exports account for 30% of the foie gras coming from Quebec, approximately 8 million francophones eat almost twice as much foie gras as the entire United States. :boggled:
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I just rechecked and am embarrassed to say I got that wrong. I was looking at the % of foie gras imported and mistook it for a % of total consumption. My apologies and I'm glad you caught that.
 
cornsail said:
I just rechecked and am embarrassed to say I got that wrong. I was looking at the % of foie gras imported and mistook it for a % of total consumption. My apologies and I'm glad you caught that.
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Ahh, OK. Unfortunately I don't know how much the Canadian portion is of the total. I know it's about 200 000 livers coming from 3 farms (assuming any of the smaller ones only deal locally). Again, I don't know which percentage comes from the specific farm in question, perhaps 1/2.

When you start crunching the numbers, the actual percentage of the total affected by "questionable" farming practices starts to drop. I wouldn't be surprised if it's "industry average". There's always going to be a few bad apples.

I honestly think PETA is using this because gavage looks a bit disturbing and can incite the most reaction in people. Is it a humane practice? By all accounts it is. Most of what they attribute to gavage is actually a result of raising domesticated waterfowl.
 
redfarmer said:
I just found this very well written piece by a reporter from The Village Voice regarding a visit to Hudson Valley, the largest foie gras farm in America and the same one that Anthony Bourdain visited.

The Village Voice-Is Foie Gras Torture?
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Although all I have to go on is an individual's written testimony, I do get the impression from this article that Hudson Valley is much better than some of the farms in Canada and France and is taking measures to improve animal welfare. That they welcome unannounced visits anytime is encouraging. And that they don't keep their birds in individual cages with no room to move like the Canadian farm is also a good thing. Still, one person's written opinion and no scientific testing is very limited as far as evidence goes, especially when scientific studies have been done on the welfare of foie gras ducks in the past (e.g. the EU Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare mentioned in the article).

As for the actual force feeding being harmful or not, the fatality rate mentioned by the article of 5% (1 out of 20) is actually quite large. That is about 25 times higher than the 0.2% that would be expected in normal ducks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy) and would seem to indicate that the force feeding is indeed harmful. Having seen pictures of normal livers compared with foie gras livers and the massive difference, this is not intuitively surprising.

It is also worth noting that not all individuals who've toured US foie gras farms have come away with the same impression. A contrasting example is the chef I mentioned earlier in the thread who toured 3 US farms and concluded foie gras was not humane, despite having served it as his restaurant and including numerous recipes for it in his recipe book. This chef is also of the opinion that animal rights groups are "idiots" and "pathetic".

I write from the perspective of a non-expert who is near-vegan. While I think non foie gras farms are inhumane I think foie gras force feeding is clearly more inhumane than normal practice. But how much more I can't give a definitive answer to. I hope more farms continue to consult animal welfare experts, as Hudson Valley appears to be doing and I'd like to think animal proponent activists have and will continue to play a role in bringing that kind of thing about.
 
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