PETA and Foie Gras

Agreed, but you are missing the point I was making there. Bourdain tried to give the impression that it was only "a few twisted angry" "vegan extremists" who are against foie gras. That was dishonest. Not just because of the high profile chefs I quoted (who are not even vegetarian), but also all the anti foie gras laws in Italy, Denmark, Poland, Israel, Argentina, The UK, California, etc etc.

I won't deny that Bourdain is prone to rhetoric at times. However, that does not disprove the assertions by the vet shown in his video that the hard lining on the duck's esophagus prevents scratching and scraping, nor does it disprove the assertion by the same vet that it's normal for a bird's liver to get large like that and that it does not inherently cause any harm to the bird.

I haven't been able to watch your video yet as it does not seem to be working in my browser, but I would ask this question: could it be that some foie gras farms are run more humanely than others, in the same way some factory farms are run extremely inhumanely while others provide a comfortable life for the animals? Could it be Bourdain's farm is one of the humane farms? I ask only because I will concede that some foie gras farms may be inhuman without saying foie gras farming is inherently inhumane.
 
I think I have answered this. I believe it harms animals to no good end.

...which is an extremely vague statement that is circular.


Look around the world and tell me who the people who eat most of the world's meat are. This argument is baffling, like arguing that only the rich have the privilege to spend less on gratuitous consumption; people doing so, therefore, are guilty of unexamined privilege. It's a complete reversal of the reality, where the world's poorest people can't afford to eat anything but a plant-based diet.

Actually, I've been to Africa, where the majority of the population eat meat as a staple part of their diet. Vegetarianism is almost unheard of there because of tradition and dietary reasons. A friend of mine asked a vendor in Morocco if they had vegetarian cous-cous, and the vendor thought my friend was joking.

And in case you don't believe my testimony...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_cuisine:
Eating meat even has a ritual significance in both traditional and modern Black South African culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_cuisine:
Traditionally, the various cuisines of Africa use a combination of locally available fruits, cereal grains and vegetables, as well as milk and meat products.

Now what I will grant you, from the same article, is that meat dishes are generally lacking in East Africa. However, for the rest of the continent, meat is an extremely important staple of the cuisine.
 
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I won't deny that Bourdain is prone to rhetoric at times. However, that does not disprove the assertions by the vet shown in his video that the hard lining on the duck's esophagus prevents scratching and scraping,

Did we watch the same video?? In the video I watched (posted by RandFan) Bourdain says "ducks have a tough lining in their throat so the tube doesn't hurt". The assertion was neither made by the vet, nor did it say anything about scratching and scraping.

nor does it disprove the assertion by the same vet that it's normal for a bird's liver to get large like that

He didn't say "it's normal for a bird's liver to get large like that". He said it's normal for them to store fat in their liver. It's not normal for them to store anywhere near that much fat in their liver.

I haven't been able to watch your video yet as it does not seem to be working in my browser, but I would ask this question: could it be that some foie gras farms are run more humanely than others, in the same way some factory farms are run extremely inhumanely while others provide a comfortable life for the animals? Could it be Bourdain's farm is one of the humane farms? I ask only because I will concede that some foie gras farms may be inhuman without saying foie gras farming is inherently inhumane.

It could be that way of course, but it's hard for me to say. It's also hard to know which types of farms your meat is coming from, but as I understand it most of our foie gras comes from Canada, not the New York farm featured in the video.
 
...which is an extremely vague statement that is circular.
It's not circular unless I say that it's harmful because it's wrong, and I didn't say that. I'm just declining to give you more details because I have no interest in arguing with cable personalities by proxy.

The stuff about meat in South Africa isn't relevant to what I asked you, which was to look at where the vast majority of the world's meat is eaten, and who in the world eats a plant-based diet. I mean, I'm sure most of the people in your Unitarian congregation have the privilege to examine what they eat and why, so the only question is how or whether they use it. The stuff about people who need animal protein is just textbook special pleading--what does this have to do with you?
 
Did we watch the same video?? In the video I watched (posted by RandFan) Bourdain says "ducks have a tough lining in their throat so the tube doesn't hurt". The assertion was neither made by the vet, nor did it say anything about scratching and scraping.

It's being kind of disingenuous here to imply that the tube not hurting and the tube not scratching and scarping are two different things, don't you think? If the tube doesn't hurt the throat, it usually follows that no scraping or scratching is occurring. If you believe other damage is being done that's not so obvious through pain to the duck, it seems the burden of proof is on the asserter to show what kind of damage is being done.

As for the assertion, if it was made by Bourdain and not the vet, I apologize. I am looking for information to back up the claim but it's hard going since searches for the word "duck esophagus" link back mostly to anti-foie gras web sites. I did find an archived article from Men's Vogue that quotes two studies on whether foie gras is cruel or not. The author states these two studies are the only ones he knows of regarding the duck's esophagus and foie gras.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20061020222123/http://www.mensvogue.com/food/articles/2006/08/21/foie_gras?currentPage=5
I telephoned Daniel Guémené, Ph.D., a research director at INRA, the prestigious French Institute for Agricultural Research. Guémené is an extremely prolific author of papers published in French and English journals, places such as World's Poultry Science and British Poultry Science. One of Guémené's keen interests is in discovering and refining ways of knowing whether poultry, ducks in this case, are in pain. He began his work on force-feeding in 1995, and as far as he can tell, his group at INRA is still alone in scientifically assessing the effect of tube feeding.

His first experiments examined the concentration of corticosterone—a hormone closely associated with stress—in ducks' bloodstreams before and after feeding. He expected a sharp rise—but found none at all. Over the following years, Guémené's group also looked at other indications of distress—avoidance of the feeder, withdrawal, pain signals in the medulla—and found possibly some pain in the final days of feeding, probably caused by inflammation of the crop; minor signs of avoidance, but not aversion, among some ducks at feeding time; and an increase in panting. Ducks showed the most stress when they were physically handled in any way or moved to new cages. Mortality on foie gras farms appears to be lower than in standard poultry operations. Guémené's group confirmed that although a grossly fattened liver is not natural, it is not a sign of disease; after feeding is stopped and the liver shrinks, there is no necrosis—no liver cells have been killed.

The American Veterinary Medical Association (the largest and oldest veterinary organization in America) has also considered tube feeding. In 2004, a resolution opposing the practice was introduced in its House of Delegates and referred to a study committee, which over the following year analyzed the limited amount of peer-reviewed literature and visited at least one of the three American foie gras farms. In July 2005, delegates presented their arguments on both the original resolution and a compromise version, apparently approved by an animal-rights representative. One opponent of tube-feeding who had made the farm visit conceded that the birds were not in distress or pain, that, although obese, they could still walk, and that they were better cared for than most chickens raised for food. But he still concluded that this was "not a good use of these animals." When a vote was taken, both ban resolutions were overwhelmingly defeated. Some delegates were influenced by the argument that if the organization disapproved tube-feeding, who knew what might follow? Why, next year they might condemn the confinement of veal calves, or the batteries of small, mechanized cages in which egg-laying hens are kept for their entire adulthood. Not a bad idea.



He didn't say "it's normal for a bird's liver to get large like that". He said it's normal for them to store fat in their liver. It's not normal for them to store anywhere near that much fat in their liver.

I did misspeak here. I meant to say that it's normal for the liver to store fat, which is what causes it to get fat.

It could be that way of course, but it's hard for me to say. It's also hard to know which types of farms your meat is coming from, but as I understand it most of our foie gras comes from Canada, not the New York farm featured in the video.
Would it be fair, then, to say that you would agree with me that the cruelty of foie gras farming depends on the conditions of the farm, which may vary significantly from farm to farm?
 
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Would it be fair, then, to say that you would agree with me that the cruelty of foie gras farming depends on the conditions of the farm, which may vary significantly from farm to farm?


I would agree that the degree of cruelty depends on the conditions of the farm, which may vary from farm to farm.
 
It's being kind of disingenuous here to imply that the tube not hurting and the tube not scratching and scarping are two different things, don't you think?

No. Because Bourdain has already shown 2 instances of misleadingly implying things that aren't true, without actually saying anything that can be proven to be a lie. First he talks about a few angry vegan extremists being the people who oppose foie gras, implying that that is essentially the extent of foie gras' opposition. Then he says that Ariane is "nice and likes animals" implying that she cares about their well being from a moral standpoint. Again, false implication, but I'm sure "she likes animals" is true on some level. So while, the implication of "it doesn't hurt" may be that there's no scratching and scraping, I have no reason to believe that this implication is true. It's much harder to definitively prove that something causes an animal pain than to prove scraping and scratching, so it's a much easier statement to get away with. That said, he may be right, but I'm not gonna take his word for it.

As for the assertion, if it was made by Bourdain and not the vet, I apologize.

It was. He says it right after the vet finishes talking, so I can see how one could get that mixed up.
 
I just found this very well written piece by a reporter from The Village Voice regarding a visit to Hudson Valley, the largest foie gras farm in America and the same one that Anthony Bourdain visited.

The Village Voice-Is Foie Gras Torture?

I'll quote some of the more interesting passages from the article:

And although Hudson Valley is the biggest foie gras producer in the country, processing 4,000 to 6,000 ducks a week, it raises birds by the traditional model, instead of the industrial one. That means that everything&-;from the egg hatching to the 21-day force-feeding period and the slaughter-happens on the same farm, tended to by the same workers. So I'd be able to see it all.

When I told (Dr. Holly Cheever, vice president of the New York Humane Society, a veterinarian, and an occasional consultant to PETA) that I was visiting Hudson Valley, she said that I'd be witnessing an elaborate cover-up. "With 150 people living on-site, they can cherry-pick out the disastrously sick ducks," she said. She also didn't believe that the farm force-feeds for only 21 days before slaughtering the ducks. "By the end of the third to fourth weeks, their breathing is strained and their limbs may be lame from infection and injury or fractures, but YOU will not see those birds," she wrote to me in an e-mail.

It's never a good sign when you have to make up excuses before the visit even happens...

I told (Marcus Henley, the farm manager at Hudson Valley) that I'd spoken with Cheever, and that she insisted I would not be allowed to see the ducks in the later stages of force-feeding and that the sick ducks would have been removed so I couldn't see them. He laughed. "It's not necessary to do that," he said. "Anyone can come anytime, unannounced. But she says we lie, that we're hiding a horror chamber. We have national-level vets come visit-we have journalists and chefs. How am I going to trick these people?"

We met up with Henley and started to look around. The first thing I noticed was the lack of tiny cages. Hudson Valley raises its ducks in free-feeding barns until they're 12 weeks old. After that, the birds are moved to the force-feeding barns, but instead of being put into individual cages, they're housed in relatively spacious, open-topped group pens about the size of an office cubicle. In fact, none of the four foie gras farms in the United States currently uses the individual cages that have shown up in industrial farms in Canada and France. Hudson Valley's products are certified "cage-free."

Henley then took me to watch the oldest ducks get loaded into a rolling cart bound for the slaughter room. They waddled to the front of their pens and regarded us curiously. The birds that finished their feeding regime yesterday were the ones being loaded up for the big goodbye, while the others, who were on day 21 that day, were being fed.

The birds on their 21st day of feeding appeared very much like the ones at 12 days, but were fatter and had dirtier feathers. The birds are bathed on the second and 10th days of feeding, but Henley said the farm was working with its animal-welfare consultants to find a way to keep the birds' feathers cleaner and thus prevent sores. These birds' reactions to the force-feeding were indistinguishable from those of the 12th-day birds. I looked for the signs that I'd been told would show me that the birds were desperately ill, but these birds, on their 21st day, were not having trouble walking or breathing, they weren't having seizures, and they weren't comatose.

I was at the farm for five hours, all told. I saw thousands of ducks, but not a drop of duck vomit. I didn't see an animal that was having a hard time breathing or walking, or a duck with a bloodied beak or blown-open esophagus. I did see one dead duck. And now I was going to see many more, as I went to the area where they are slaughtered.

Soon afterward, I remembered to ask to see the esophagi removed from the slaughtered birds so I could check if they'd been damaged. I was taken past the workers slicing off the garnet breasts and legs and weighing cream-colored livers, and back into the slaughtering room. One worker was slicing off the feet, heads, and necks of the just-plucked ducks and placing those bits into a large garbage bin.

Rick Bishop, Hudson Valley's marketing director, plunged his bare hand into the bin and brought up a floppy, yellowish tube. It was stretchy, smooth, glossy, and thick. He turned part of it inside out, and I looked for abrasions, punctures, and bruises-anything that a layperson could identify as a sign that this esophagus had lived a tortured life. Nothing. I looked at several more esophagi plucked randomly from the bin, and all of them were pale pinkish-yellow and intact-no wounds, no blood, and no bruises or scrapes.

But Dr. Jaime Ruiz, director of Cornell's duck-research laboratory (and who was at pains to note that he did not support or oppose foie gras production) told me, "The farmers that I know here in New York and France handle the birds carefully, not feeding them above the physiological limits of the birds." He also said that he did not think that force-feeding, done correctly, would cause pain and that he does not consider an enlarged liver to be diseased.

Animal rights' groups often cite a 1998 report on foie gras from the European Commission's Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Animal Welfare. The 93-page report, though eventually concluding that "force-feeding, as currently practiced, is detrimental to the welfare of birds," is not exactly the slam dunk for animal rights' groups that I had been led to believe.

The report does not propose ending foie gras production, but instead puts forth recommendations for improving the way it's done. In fact, a part of the last section reads, "Since foie gras needs to be produced in order to satisfy the consumers' demand, it is important to produce it in conditions that are acceptable from the welfare viewpoint." The committee's suggestions include making sure that the liver size isn't causing distress to the animal, properly training all persons in charge of the birds, and banning the use of small, individual cages.

Why are activists so devoted to this issue? Most of the organizations against foie gras also advocate vegetarianism or veganism. If you generally oppose the manipulation of animals for food, you're going to oppose foie gras all the more, because the production does manipulate the animal more than usual. Manipulation does not necessarily equal abuse, though. But it's manipulation of a different sort that is at work in the videos I watched before my Hudson Valley visit. Those images are not representative of the reality at the nation's largest foie gras farm.
 
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I just found this very well written piece by a reporter from The Village Voice regarding a visit to Hudson Valley, the largest foie gras farm in America and the same one that Anthony Bourdain visited.
The Village Voice-Is Foie Gras Torture?

Sounds about right. Farmers in a large scale business don't need the hassle (or disease). They follow the rules and avoid any problems. In many cases because they employ a vet anyways animals get above average care. These ducks probably see a doctor more frequently than most people.
 
I usually eat it about 1-2 times a month. Typically I eat the hudson valley stuff because that's what most restaurants around here have. Occasionally I'll have some of the sonoma valley stuff as well. I prefer the actual liver, not the terrine version. Typically it's seared and served with some sort of fruit reduction (cherry season lately!).

I never thought about it much but I always knew there was some story to the production. After reading some of the above posts about production any qualms I would have had about eating it are completely gone. Hudson valley in particular seems quite ethical.

Hmmm... tasty. It really is some seriously good stuff.

from one of my fav places:

Seared Foie Gras with Bing Cherries, Candied Ginger and Cacao Nib 22.

soooo good.
 
That Village Voice article was excellent! It illustrates that foie gras production is no less cruel to the ducks as any others in the meat industry. Those who are against foie gras are more likely to oppose eating meat in general.

I first had foie gras at my hotel in Tokyo (the Lost in Translation hotel) and was hesitant to try it due to my general hatred of liver. Needless to say, it was delicious, seared and served in a fruit reduction.

Not many restaurants in Portland, Oregon serve foie gras, mainly because of concerted efforts by PETA to protest those that offer it. One in particular had to pull it from his menu to get the protesters away from his restaurant. He did, however, serve it if someone requested it!
 
It's to the point for me that when I see a PETA claim, I automatically assume that it's either dishonest, misrepresented, or another attempt to get attention.

I had a run-in with both PETA and ALF folks on the net long ago, when they were arguing for returning all captive aquarium-kept fish to the wild. The irony, of course, of the particular species they were arguing about is that the species exists only in captivity, its habitat in the wild having been destroyed and the species being otherwise extinct. (These were killifish, which live in ephimeral pools.) Their misconduct in that discussion, long ago, clued me in to their egregious lies and misrepresentations, as well as their actual indifference to the animals they claim to be protecting.
 
I'm surprised there have been no comments on the video I posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWN8UGDyC0) considering the amount of comments on the Bourdain video.

Some of the issues highlighted:

-Trash bins full of (often live) chicklets
-Attempting to spit up food delivered in force feeding
-Virtually no room to move around
-Trouble breathing due to liver's pressure on the lungs
-Deaths resultant from force feeding pre-slaughter
-Ineffectual "electric bath" anesthesia that ducks simply dodge away from
-Seeming lack of oversight for sadistic employee behavior
 
I'm surprised there have been no comments on the video I posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWN8UGDyC0) considering the amount of comments on the Bourdain video.

Some of the issues highlighted:

-Trash bins full of (often live) chicklets
-Attempting to spit up food delivered in force feeding
-Virtually no room to move around
-Trouble breathing due to liver's pressure on the lungs
-Deaths resultant from force feeding pre-slaughter
-Ineffectual "electric bath" anesthesia that ducks simply dodge away from
-Seeming lack of oversight for sadistic employee behavior

Did you read the article I posted and quoted extensively from? It suggest PETA shoots their videos at foie gras farms in Canada and France, some of which do exhibit bad conditions, but are not comparable to the four American farms, which have much different conditions.
 
Those who are against foie gras are more likely to oppose eating meat in general.

I oppose factory farming in general so I don't eat meat, but tons of people are against it who aren't against eating meat. It's illegal in the UK, Italy, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Norway, Poland, Argentina, Israel and soon to be illegal in California. 83% of those polled in San Diego are against it and I highly doubt that 83% are all vegetarians. Meat eating in general isn't illegal in any country.
 
I oppose factory farming in general so I don't eat meat, but tons of people are against it who aren't against eating meat. It's illegal in the UK, Italy, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Norway, Poland, Argentina, Israel and soon to be illegal in California. 83% of those polled in San Diego are against it and I highly doubt that 83% are all vegetarians. Meat eating in general isn't illegal in any country.

That's fine but that's all completely irrelevant. You're ignoring the fact that, while conditions may be inhumane at some foie gras farms, it does not follow they are inhuman at all foie gras farms. And how many localities it is illegal in and how many people think it should be banned are also completely irrelevant as to whether it is inherently inhumane.

I repeat the question, did you read the article?
 
Did you read the article I posted and quoted extensively from? It suggest PETA shoots their videos at foie gras farms in Canada and France, some of which do exhibit bad conditions, but are not comparable to the four American farms, which have much different conditions.

The video wasn't shot by PETA, it was shot by an employee. And I'm aware not all farms necessarily have the same conditions.

As I've already pointed out that was shot at the largest foie gras producer in Canada, which is where around 75% of the foie gras in the USA comes from. If you are eating foie gras in the US, chances are it came from Canada.
 
If california makes it illegal I'm going to laugh my ass off. I doubt they will though as California is truly a foody state. Weed + foie gras = heaven (or california!)
 

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