Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

[DarthFishy]

I have been defending the South African justice system in this thread but I have to agree that house arrest with community service would be inappropriate. Hopefully Judge Masipa considers a lengthy jail term when she makes the final decision for the sentencing.

 

[The Don]

I wonder if there's a country that doesn't have a problem with overcrowded prisons. Perhaps we should either build more (or more spacious) prisons, or send fewer people to prison. Just a thought. Maybe if we privatize all of our prisons we will get a more efficient service.

The experience in the UK and the US of privatised prisons is mixed to say the least. Some of the privatised prisons have the lowest ratings and the only effective way to significantly cut costs, to reduce staffing levels, can result in prisoners merely being confined to cells with little or no attempt at rehabilitation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/08/prison-privatisation-g4s-wolds

The problem as I see it is that in a "business as usual" situation it is very difficult to construct a contractual relationship which results in lower costs and improved service unless there are significant reductions in pay.

According to the prison reform trust the average gross salary for a private prison officer is 23% less than their public sector counterpart. Private prisons are also more likely to house their inmates in overcrowded cells.

Private prisons have held a higher percentage of their prisoners in overcrowded accommodation than public sector prisons every year for the 13 years to 2010/11.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9501746/Two-thirds-of-prisons-overcrowded-report.html


In the U.S. some providers are guaranteed occupancy. The linked article has been written by someone who is very anti-private prison:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/08/01/why-private-prisons-don-t-work

he claims that:

A 2010 Arizona’s Office of the Auditor General report found minimum security prisoners cost 33 cents (20p) a day more per prisoner than public ones. Medium security prisoners cost $7.76 (£4.60) more.

 

[Samson]

If he is let off with such a mild sentence as house arrest and community service, it would represent a worldwide disgrace for South African "justice", sadly.

Any progressive judicial system will look at history of offending and likelihood of reoffending. Nil and nil.

 

[lionking]

Any progressive judicial system will look at history of offending and likelihood of reoffending. Nil and nil.

And any decent judicial system would look at punishment as well.

I mean, seriously? I could kill my wife, with no priors and no likelihood of reoffending. I should get a non-custodial sentence? Seriously?

The Cult of OP is very weird indeed.

 

[Samson]

And any decent judicial system would look at punishment as well.

I mean, seriously? I could kill my wife, with no priors and no likelihood of reoffending. I should get a non-custodial sentence? Seriously?

The Cult of OP is very weird indeed.

How can cultism apply. I am an independent, how can it be otherwise? There are cases we study where there is no prior and no post offending, and cogent explanations that the alleged offence might be a misapplication of evidential interpretation and logic. These cases are fascinating, but do not require terms like groupie, fan, cult or anything else to be discussed. Amen.

 

[The Don]

Any progressive judicial system will look at history of offending and likelihood of reoffending. Nil and nil.

It depends what you mean by re-offending. True there is 0% change that OP will kill Reeva Steenkamp again and he had never killed her before but he has a history of firearm misuse and his fear issues remain.

IMO OP is very likely to re-offend. It may not be murder or culpable homicide (then again it might) but there is a high likelihood of gun and/or violent offences.

 

[lionking]

IMO OP is very likely to re-offend. It may not be murder or culpable homicide (then again it might) but there is a high likelihood of gun and/or violent offences.

The guy's an impulsive hothead. The likelihood is high.

I'm sickened by reports that he's been planning a future training regime.

 

[Samson]

It depends what you mean by re-offending. True there is 0% change that OP will kill Reeva Steenkamp again and he had never killed her before but he has a history of firearm misuse and his fear issues remain.

IMO OP is very likely to re-offend. It may not be murder or culpable homicide (then again it might) but there is a high likelihood of gun and/or violent offences.

I hope not, I am still wiping my eyes from his last performance.

 

[katy_did]

And any decent judicial system would look at punishment as well.

I mean, seriously? I could kill my wife, with no priors and no likelihood of reoffending. I should get a non-custodial sentence? Seriously?

The Cult of OP is very weird indeed.

There was reference earlier in the thread to a man who shot his pregnant wife as she was coming out of the bathroom and was given an eight year suspended sentence, while the rugby player who shot his daughter wasn't charged. If Pistorius were to be given, say, a ten year mostly suspended sentence with three years to be served under house arrest, that would be a harsher sentence than has been given for similar crimes in SA. At least for those few cases I've seen referenced. So in fact, it's not correct to talk about "the cult of OP" as if this case were somehow being treated differently to any other.

With a mostly suspended sentence, obviously if there were any repetition of, for example, the restaurant incident, he'd go straight to prison.

 

[Rat]

The experience in the UK and the US of privatised prisons is mixed to say the least. Some of the privatised prisons have the lowest ratings and the only effective way to significantly cut costs, to reduce staffing levels, can result in prisoners merely being confined to cells with little or no attempt at rehabilitation.

Yes, I should probably make it clearer when I'm joking. I don't actually think that instituting a system that incentivizes imprisoning people is a good idea.

 

[newyorkguy]

The reason why I have been wondering about Pistorius' anger issues is from experiences I had when I was younger and working for a van service. One of our clients was a center for the disabled. They provided various services, such as counseling, emotional therapy, arranging physical therapy, vocational training and transportation when needed (which is where my company came in). Their clients included people with physical disabilities such as Oscar Pistorius has, persons without sight and people who had chronic learning disabilities.

I got to know one of the senior counselors and I asked her one day about the unexpected and really intense anger displays I'd seen. None of the clients I transported were wheelchair-bound but they included amputees and blind persons. Occasionally when the van would be late picking them up or there would be a dispatching error (I'd pick up two clients headed in completely different directions) I witnessed the clients suddenly and unexpectedly becoming violently angry. To the point where they would begin cursing and yelling, pounding on the van, literally shaking with anger. Most of the clients were usually very mild-mannered and good-natured and it was unsettling.

The counselor told me that chronic anger is often a major issue with persons who have disabilities. She said that, "On the inside they're like everyone else," and they do feel anger at their situation, profound anger: Why did this happen to me? Why can't I be like everyone else? She said the counselors tried to help the clients work through these feeling but they never really go away. She said persons with serious disabilities are dealing with a lot of stressful feelings and occasionally may feel overwhelmed and become extremely angry. (She also told me to just let them vent; that normally they would quickly regain their composure.)

That's why I wondered if something might've happened between Steenkamp and Pistorius that could've triggered a murderous rage. I guess we all know intimate relationships can produce extreme emotions and when it's someone with Pistorius' disabilities I could easily believe it might've triggered an out-of-control rage. In fact the events as described really sound to me like that was exactly what happened.

 

[Colin from France]

You're right, there are many reasons, i have three......... she said "i'm off you legless b.....d" or she found something on his telephone and lastly that he found out that she had been two timing him.

 

[Scordatura]

I'm not sure I understand any of this. Do they not have prisoners with disabilities in South Africa? Can the disabled commit crimes with impunity, knowing that they can never be imprisoned? I honestly don't see how it can make any difference at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GhUxIHvFPA

Vergeer managed to discredit herself today. She got the stats about prisons from a web site and a couple of phone calls. Nel pointed out that her information came from 2005 and 2008. He also corrected her assertions about prisons not having suitable facilities for the disabled. It turns out that they do. They even have baths.

Departmental spokesperson Mthunzi Mhaga said that their centres can cater for disabled inmates as they have some currently serving sentences.

https://in.news.yahoo.com/sa-jail-a...-house-disabled-prisoners-051139624--spt.html

 

[Scordatura]

From today:

Roux:

OP's a victim.

Goats.

OP thought Reeva was in the bathroom....er, the bedroom.

Nel:

No handicapped rails in OP's house, including the shower. Roux objects, says OP has a shower bench, Masipa says it's not the same as rails.

Roux's quoted cases all involved one shot, OP shot four times, directly into door.

Nel asks for 10 year minimum sentence. Requests no gun license.

Sentencing on Tuesday, October 21 at 9:30 am.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Requests no gun license.
.....

Isn't that pretty much automatic? OP has been convicted of a violent felony. Can he still buy or possess a firearm in SA?

 

[Samson]

Isn't that pretty much automatic? OP has been convicted of a violent felony. Can he still buy or possess a firearm in SA?

Could we imagine his appetite for guns is attenuated?

 

[Bob001]

Could we imagine his appetite for guns is attenuated?

Based on his past history, I don't think you can assume that at all, especially if he doesn't go to prison or after he gets out. In any case, the question is whether SA law allows a convicted violent felon to possess a firearm if he wants one. In the U.S. he could not.

 

[newyorkguy]

Another problem with Oscar Pistorius' version of events led me to doubt his story was truthful. Beyond the fact he failed to check to make sure Reeva Steenkamp was still in bed before going to confront the intruder.

Why did he decide to leave her alone in the bedroom while he went to confront what he claims to have believed was a lone intruder. Why would he have assumed there was just the one intruder? How would he have known there wasn't someone else in the apartment? How would he have known intruder #2 wouldn't attack a defenseless Steenkamp while he went to confront intruder #1?

IMO he knew that wouldn't happen because there never was an intruder. It's just his story. I'm not surprised the police didn't buy it and instead arrested him and charged him with murder. However once you get in court the prosecutors have the difficult task of "proving" what Pistorius thought. How could they do that?

 

[Scordatura]

Another problem with Oscar Pistorius' version of events led me to doubt his story was truthful. Beyond the fact he failed to check to make sure Reeva Steenkamp was still in bed before going to confront the intruder.

Why did he decide to leave her alone in the bedroom while he went to confront what he claims to have believed was a lone intruder. Why would he have assumed there was just the one intruder? How would he have known there wasn't someone else in the apartment? How would he have known intruder #2 wouldn't attack a defenseless Steenkamp while he went to confront intruder #1?

IMO he knew that wouldn't happen because there never was an intruder. It's just his story. I'm not surprised the police didn't buy it and instead arrested him and charged him with murder. However once you get in court the prosecutors have the difficult task of "proving" what Pistorius thought. How could they do that?

It's a Tale of Two Oscars. He was frozen, too scared to turn on the bedroom light yet shouted and screamed his way down the passage to the bathroom. He was too terrified to hit the remote alarm button and needed to confront the threat instead.

According to his psyche evaluation Oscar suffers from social anxiety, is nearly agoraphobic and doesn't abuse alcohol. Yet he managed to gather his courage enough to visit crowded nightclubs, get drunk, hit on women and even get into a fight.

Something that continues to bug me is this slip of the tongue:

During Oscar's testimony, around 16:45 Nel asks him if he was screaming or shouting after firing the shots. OP replies he was screaming. Nel asks why would he scream and Oscar says:

“I was scared, I wanted to...(pause)... ask Reeva why she's phoning the police. I was scared that there was someone coming out of the bathroom stall.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_hle5shsDY

 

[newyorkguy]

There seems to be much circumstantial evidence that weighs against Pistorius' version but little in the way of the physical evidence needed to disprove it. In some cases that scenario can weigh against the defendant at sentencing.

I recall reading in an American case a defendant being sentenced complained to the judge that he was being given too harsh a sentence. The defendant had been found guilty of manslaughter. The judge then reminded the convicted man that there were some very serious allegations against him that would've supported a finding of first-degree murder. That they had not in any way been disproven. The judge said while he agreed with the jury that the evidence did not support the higher charge he (the judge) felt the circumstances of the case demanded a tougher sentence than usual.

The South African judge obviously doesn't seem to be thinking that way. Pistorius is lucky.