commandlinegamer
Philosopher
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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend
- Thread starter figarot
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Ambrosia
Good of the Fods
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2009
- Messages
- 2,675
We don't know who the love of his life is.
We do know he shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp.
I am saddened to read today that a state appointed social worker recommend 3 years of house arrest and community service. I agree with Nel that that's 'shockingly inappropriate'
i) if Reeva was the love of his life and he's distraught over accidentally shooting her, he's likely to commit suicide confined to his own house.
ii) if his story is just a story and he knowingly killed Reeva (and we have no way to ever know for sure either way) then that's no punishment at all.
If you kill someone then a prison sentence should be mandatory. I'd be very surprised if the prosecution doesn't appeal once sentencing is complete.
Scordatura
Critical Thinker
Well, it's been an interesting first day. It should be on YouTube by now. I watched the livestream and made some notes (paraphrasing the testimony). A more official recap is here: http://online.wsj.com/articles/oscar-pistorius-returns-to-court-for-sentencing-1413185613?mod=e2tw and http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29591517
First witness is OP's therapist, Dr. Lore Hartzenberg. She's the gray-haired woman who was in court during the trial, stroking and pettingbaby OP.
Dr. H: OP's therapist for the last 18 months – lots of sessions were him weeping and me holding him. She and OP had an agreement from the outset that she would not be a witness. Talked about his grief and remorse and how sessions frequently had to be canceled due to grief.
OP was deprived of the opportunity to mourn the passing of Reeva because of the murder charges and kept looping back to previous stages of grief - called complicated grief. He directed anger at himself and also questions “God's grace” and his faith.
Abuse by the media and social media had a significant effect. His ability to heal was destroyed by the malevolence. He lost his friends since they know he killed her. OP has lost his voice to support disabled children.
She confirmed his remorse and pain to be genuine. Without his deep faith in God he wouldn't be able to survive this trial. He is suffering from PTSD and will require intensive, ongoing therapy. We're left with a broken man who lost everything – reputation, career, money. His self-identity is shattered.
Nel asks what about the Steenkamps? Says he received her report minutes before court started and doesn't have any other defense reports. Nel asks why they didn't discuss his ongoing career after the verdict. Dr. H says OP often was too tired to have sessions, his biggest wish was to work with children in Mozambique.
Nel: Your impression is he's lost his career so he has no career, no potential?
Dr. H: Of course he has potential.
Nel: Have you had sessions with OP after verdict. Did you discuss the judgment?
Dr. H: To a certain extent.
Nel: Was his view still he never intended to fire the gun?
Dr. H: Excuse me?
Nel asks her if OP told her his version was that the gun went off. She says he heard a sound and fired the gun. Her role was to offer safe space to OP, not to establish objective facts. Says they didn't discuss OP's relationships.
She reads about hyper arousal, irritation, inability to sleep, etc. About Reeva she says he felt he had met the right person, in his heart and mind she was “The One.” She said he wanted to share everything in his life with her. Nothing is said about the Reeva lookalike (Kesiah Frank) he hit on shortly after killing Reeva.
Nel asks if Reeva was the one for OP why did he get her birthday wrong on the stand. She says they didn't discuss much about Reeva, doesn't know much about her – just what she's read in newspapers.
Break...
Nel asks if OP is currently involved with someone (Leah Skye Malan). Dr. H. says she read about it but OP never mentioned it. After some back and forth, she finally admits it would have been important if OP had brought it to the sessions. Masipa gets mad at Nel.
Next witness. Joel Maringa - social worker at the Department of Correctional Services. Defense wants him to give evidence about house arrest. He talks about OP's sports achievements, sour relationship with his dad. Masipa pays close attention to his report and testimony.
JM says OP should probably not be licensed to have firearms.
He recommends house arrest sentence. OP may not leave residence, workplace without prior notice – with exceptions – and should do community service (16 hrs./mo.). Maringa says OP could work at the Transvaal Museum or the Little Company of Mary hospital.
JM doesn't understand the facts of the case and is confused. He says according to the judgment OP didn't intend to shoot. Nel tells him he misread judgment.
Nel: You recommended 2768H? Based on seriousness of the crime you know OP walked down passage with intention to use firearm.
JM: As far as I recall, he had no intention to shoot, according to the judgment.
Nel: You're wrong.
JM: I'm sure I saw it somewhere.
Nel reads from judgment where Masipa refers to OP's intention to use gun.
JM: I didn’t see that. Nel says then how he can make a recommendation.
JM says he has in mind 3 years correctional supervision.
Nel: What was the negligence here?
JM: That he unintentionally fired a shot. Further discussion over JM's confusion between the Tasha's incident and Reeva's shooting. Says he didn't know OP's ammo was black talon type bullets.
Masipa asks what the community service would be.
JM says cleaning, such as cleaning hospital yard. OP would work 8 hours a day, twice a month.
Next witness is Peet Van Zyl, OP's manager.
Roux: The purpose today is to talk about "the charity work done and what's left of his career."
PVZ lists charities. Says OP used some of his own funds to give a corporate talk. Says OP got blisters helping a girl in Italy, was bitten by a little kid. Everyone was concerned, but OP said he was fine. Mentions University of Strathclyde (which is considering stripping him of his honorary degree btw).
Lunch break. OP and family pray.
Break over. More testimony about OP's charitable work. On page 94 and court is adjourned for the day.
Livestream is now on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gooucl7jB64&app=desktop Hearing begins @ 13:22 or so.
First witness is OP's therapist, Dr. Lore Hartzenberg. She's the gray-haired woman who was in court during the trial, stroking and petting
Dr. H: OP's therapist for the last 18 months – lots of sessions were him weeping and me holding him. She and OP had an agreement from the outset that she would not be a witness. Talked about his grief and remorse and how sessions frequently had to be canceled due to grief.
OP was deprived of the opportunity to mourn the passing of Reeva because of the murder charges and kept looping back to previous stages of grief - called complicated grief. He directed anger at himself and also questions “God's grace” and his faith.
Abuse by the media and social media had a significant effect. His ability to heal was destroyed by the malevolence. He lost his friends since they know he killed her. OP has lost his voice to support disabled children.
She confirmed his remorse and pain to be genuine. Without his deep faith in God he wouldn't be able to survive this trial. He is suffering from PTSD and will require intensive, ongoing therapy. We're left with a broken man who lost everything – reputation, career, money. His self-identity is shattered.
Nel asks what about the Steenkamps? Says he received her report minutes before court started and doesn't have any other defense reports. Nel asks why they didn't discuss his ongoing career after the verdict. Dr. H says OP often was too tired to have sessions, his biggest wish was to work with children in Mozambique.
Nel: Your impression is he's lost his career so he has no career, no potential?
Dr. H: Of course he has potential.
Nel: Have you had sessions with OP after verdict. Did you discuss the judgment?
Dr. H: To a certain extent.
Nel: Was his view still he never intended to fire the gun?
Dr. H: Excuse me?
Nel asks her if OP told her his version was that the gun went off. She says he heard a sound and fired the gun. Her role was to offer safe space to OP, not to establish objective facts. Says they didn't discuss OP's relationships.
She reads about hyper arousal, irritation, inability to sleep, etc. About Reeva she says he felt he had met the right person, in his heart and mind she was “The One.” She said he wanted to share everything in his life with her. Nothing is said about the Reeva lookalike (Kesiah Frank) he hit on shortly after killing Reeva.
Nel asks if Reeva was the one for OP why did he get her birthday wrong on the stand. She says they didn't discuss much about Reeva, doesn't know much about her – just what she's read in newspapers.
Break...
Nel asks if OP is currently involved with someone (Leah Skye Malan). Dr. H. says she read about it but OP never mentioned it. After some back and forth, she finally admits it would have been important if OP had brought it to the sessions. Masipa gets mad at Nel.
Next witness. Joel Maringa - social worker at the Department of Correctional Services. Defense wants him to give evidence about house arrest. He talks about OP's sports achievements, sour relationship with his dad. Masipa pays close attention to his report and testimony.
JM says OP should probably not be licensed to have firearms.
He recommends house arrest sentence. OP may not leave residence, workplace without prior notice – with exceptions – and should do community service (16 hrs./mo.). Maringa says OP could work at the Transvaal Museum or the Little Company of Mary hospital.
JM doesn't understand the facts of the case and is confused. He says according to the judgment OP didn't intend to shoot. Nel tells him he misread judgment.
Nel: You recommended 2768H? Based on seriousness of the crime you know OP walked down passage with intention to use firearm.
JM: As far as I recall, he had no intention to shoot, according to the judgment.
Nel: You're wrong.
JM: I'm sure I saw it somewhere.
Nel reads from judgment where Masipa refers to OP's intention to use gun.
JM: I didn’t see that. Nel says then how he can make a recommendation.
JM says he has in mind 3 years correctional supervision.
Nel: What was the negligence here?
JM: That he unintentionally fired a shot. Further discussion over JM's confusion between the Tasha's incident and Reeva's shooting. Says he didn't know OP's ammo was black talon type bullets.
Masipa asks what the community service would be.
JM says cleaning, such as cleaning hospital yard. OP would work 8 hours a day, twice a month.
Next witness is Peet Van Zyl, OP's manager.
Roux: The purpose today is to talk about "the charity work done and what's left of his career."
PVZ lists charities. Says OP used some of his own funds to give a corporate talk. Says OP got blisters helping a girl in Italy, was bitten by a little kid. Everyone was concerned, but OP said he was fine. Mentions University of Strathclyde (which is considering stripping him of his honorary degree btw).
Lunch break. OP and family pray.
Break over. More testimony about OP's charitable work. On page 94 and court is adjourned for the day.
Livestream is now on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gooucl7jB64&app=desktop Hearing begins @ 13:22 or so.
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Colin from France
Thinker
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2014
- Messages
- 125
This trial is over and beyond a joke, SA is worse off for it, the only hope left is for an appeal regardless of the sentence.
Scordatura
Critical Thinker
I agree. I don't see OP doing any time.
Today Annette Vergeer said OP took responsibility and showed remorse – via his crying and retching. When Roux suggested that OP working with children would be better community service than cleaning, I wish I had my own green bucket handy. Apparently even 16 hours a month of cleaning is too much punishment for OP.
Today Annette Vergeer said OP took responsibility and showed remorse – via his crying and retching. When Roux suggested that OP working with children would be better community service than cleaning, I wish I had my own green bucket handy. Apparently even 16 hours a month of cleaning is too much punishment for OP.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
This sounds strangely familiar. 
As people in the U.S. criminal justice system sometimes cynically say: A defendant gets all the justice they can afford.
As people in the U.S. criminal justice system sometimes cynically say: A defendant gets all the justice they can afford.
MontagK505
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2008
- Messages
- 3,035
Well, we do know that Oscar loves Oscar. Of that, there is no doubt.
The most charitable thing you can say, is that the man is stupid and a menace to others.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
I wonder if South African prison officials have any concerns about housing Oscar Pistorius given his disability. How they would provide secure confinement for him, ensure his safety in case of a fire, flood, etc. They might not be too eager to have him as an inmate. I wonder if that might possibly play a role in selecting house arrest -- which is where it sounds like we're headed -- if prison officials might have made this concern known privately. They don't want to have to house Pistorius.
I also often wonder how much public sympathy has helped Pistorius, given his disability and all he has been able to achieve. Until this shooting he was generally regarded as a role model for the physically disabled, actually heroic, wasn't he? I'm sure it must be hard for some people to turn him against him, to see him as a brutish girlfriend killer. Much easier to just believe him when he says it was all a tragic mistake and swears he would never have deliberately hurt Reeva much less killed her.
Thinking back to the night it happened, I wonder about Pistorius becoming angry to the point of uncontrollable rage. It can not be easy having lost both legs below the knee and I often wonder how much rage simmers within Pistorius. How much frustration and anger he may feel because of the cruel hand fate dealt him.
-- if prison officials might have made this concern known privately. They don't want to have to house Pistorius.I also often wonder how much public sympathy has helped Pistorius, given his disability and all he has been able to achieve. Until this shooting he was generally regarded as a role model for the physically disabled, actually heroic, wasn't he? I'm sure it must be hard for some people to turn him against him, to see him as a brutish girlfriend killer. Much easier to just believe him when he says it was all a tragic mistake and swears he would never have deliberately hurt Reeva much less killed her.
Thinking back to the night it happened, I wonder about Pistorius becoming angry to the point of uncontrollable rage. It can not be easy having lost both legs below the knee and I often wonder how much rage simmers within Pistorius. How much frustration and anger he may feel because of the cruel hand fate dealt him.
Scordatura
Critical Thinker
Vergeer said disabilities shouldn't be taken into account when sentencing then went on to list reasons why OP's disability makes a prison sentence unsuitable. Concrete floors would be hard on his stumps, no baths or private showers, stuff like that.
I wonder what the loved ones of disabled prisoners serving time think of this testimony?
I wonder what the loved ones of disabled prisoners serving time think of this testimony?
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
I wonder if South African prison officials have any concerns about housing Oscar Pistorius given his disability. How they would provide secure confinement for him, ensure his safety in case of a fire, flood, etc. They might not be too eager to have him as an inmate. I wonder if that might possibly play a role in selecting house arrest -- which is where it sounds like we're headed
...
This is an interesting thought. I heard, in the testimony, something about the personal hygiene concern re: caring for and bandaging his stumps. I can't remember now exactly what was said, but it was around the time of the gang rape testimony. I remember thinking OP might be at greater risk than usual w.r.t. defending himself. Well, that and he seems to be a bit of a pussy anyway. (Did I say that?)
At any rate, if he is riskier because of his fame and/or his disability, plus he is higher maintenance because of his disability, you very well could be correct. But then the question becomes are these sentencing hearings all for show?
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.,
I'm not sure I understand any of this. Do they not have prisoners with disabilities in South Africa? Can the disabled commit crimes with impunity, knowing that they can never be imprisoned? I honestly don't see how it can make any difference at all.
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.,
ETA: dp. By which I mean double post, obviously.
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Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
It's mostly just speculation as to why it appears S.A. is going to go so light on Pistorius, although certain parts of it are based on statements made in the courtroom. Though I have read that South Africa has a problem with overcrowded prisons. It might factor into the decision, or it may not.
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.,
I wonder if there's a country that doesn't have a problem with overcrowded prisons. Perhaps we should either build more (or more spacious) prisons, or send fewer people to prison. Just a thought. Maybe if we privatize all of our prisons we will get a more efficient service.
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.,
I wonder if there's a country that doesn't have a problem with overcrowded prisons. Perhaps we should either build more (or more spacious) prisons, or send fewer people to prison. Just a thought. Maybe if we privatize all of our prisons we will get a more efficient service.
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
Octavo
Illuminator
Yes, our prisons are pretty badly overcrowded and yes, the government sucks at maintaining any sort of infrastructure unless they can enrich themselves with backhanders and positions on the board for any contracts that are awarded.
AdMan
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2010
- Messages
- 10,293
If he is let off with such a mild sentence as house arrest and community service, it would represent a worldwide disgrace for South African "justice", sadly.
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