Orca kills trainer at SeaWorld Orlando

[CORed]

I've seen a different version that said they ' bumped ' her into the water.
Sounds to me like they were trying to play; just like they had been trained to do, and like they do with each other .
' Kill ' implies intent ..




Again, there is no reason to believe he intended to kill her. Looks to me like he was trying to play, the way he had been encouraged to do all those years ...

edit:

The whales have no reason to believe their captors cannot bump and play under water ( for extended periods ), just like they do..

If they intended to kill these people, they would have torn them to shreds ..

WTF? I think she's dead. I only held her under for two or three minutes. Can't those weak little two-legged critters hold their breath for a few minutes?

 

[William Parcher]

I've seen a different version that said they ' bumped ' her into the water. Sounds to me like they were trying to play; just like they had been trained to do, and like they do with each other .

What a visitor saw happen underwater at SeaWorld...

"Came down with a person in his mouth was shaking her violently. A shoe flew off and the sirens immediately began going off and people were running everywhere," Biniak said.

Source

 

[William Parcher]

I understand what you mean Greg. Killing usually implies intent and we can't really know what the orca is thinking. Maybe "caused death" is a better term. But then we'd need to change our terminology for a whole range of animal/human interactions. Mother bears have "killed" people who get near their cubs. But really, are they wanting to kill or only to neutralize the potential threat to their offspring? Holy crap. We can't say "killed" for anything other than an obvious predatory attack followed by consumption?


An account of the death of Keltie Byrne...

On February 20, 1991, University of Victoria marine biology student and part-time trainer Keltie Byrne, 20, slipped and fell into the orca pool at Sealand of the Pacific. She had just finished a show with the three orcas. Since Sealand trainers stay out of the water, she was not wearing a wetsuit. One whale took her in its mouth and began dragging her around the pool, mostly underwater. A champion swimmer who had competed at the international level, she was no match for three huge orcas determined to keep her in the pool. At one point she reached the side and tried to climb out but, as horrified visitors watched from the sidelines, the whales pulled her screaming back into the pool.

"I just heard her scream my name," said trainer Karen McGee, 25, and then I saw she was in the pool with the whales. "I threw the life-ring out to her. She was trying to grab the ring, but the whale, basically, wouldn't let her. To them it was a play session, and she was in the water." McGee and other Sealand staff tried to distract the whales by throwing them fish, banging on the water with steel buckets and giving them hand and voice commands. Nothing worked. Byrne came up screaming one more time and then, as the whale swam round and round the pool with Byrne in its mouth, she finally drowned. It was several hours before her body could be recovered.

She had ten tooth marks on her body, the largest on her left thigh, but was otherwise untouched. The whales had stripped her clothes off. "It was just a tragic accident," Sealand manager Alejandro Bolz told newspaper reporters. "I just cannot explain it."

 

[Skeptical Greg]

WTF? I think she's dead. I only held her under for two or three minutes. Can't those weak little two-legged critters hold their breath for a few minutes?

Exactly !

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I understand what you mean Greg. Killing usually implies intent and we can't really know what the orca is thinking. Maybe "caused death" is a better term. But then we'd need to change our terminology for a whole range of animal/human interactions. Mother bears have "killed" people who get near their cubs. But really, are they wanting to kill or only to neutralize the potential threat to their offspring? Holy crap. We can't say "killed" for anything other than an obvious predatory attack followed by consumption?

I believe it's a misuse of the word ' kill ' and an intent to villainise this creature, when there is no reason to believe it intended to kill these people..



An account of the death of Keltie Byrne...
From the perspectve of the Orcas:

On February 20, 1991, University of Victoria marine biology student and part-time trainer Keltie Byrne, 20, slipped and fell into the orca pool at Sealand of the Pacific.

Look! Keltie jumped in the water ! She wants to play, or she might be trying to make a move on our man ..

She had just finished a show with the three orcas. Since Sealand trainers stay out of the water, she was not wearing a wetsuit. One whale took her in its mouth and began dragging her around the pool, mostly underwater

.

( Well gee, do you think they should have left the water and played with her there ? )

A champion swimmer who had competed at the international level, she was no match for three huge orcas determined to keep her in the pool.

(No Shish Kebabs ! )

At one point she reached the side and tried to climb out but, as horrified visitors watched from the sidelines, the whales pulled her screaming back into the pool.

Oh look ! She wants us to chase her !

"I just heard her scream my name," said trainer Karen McGee, 25, and then I saw she was in the pool with the whales. "I threw the life-ring out to her. She was trying to grab the ring, but the whale, basically, wouldn't let her. To them it was a play session, and she was in the water."

( Not a ' let's kill the human' , session .. )

McGee and other Sealand staff tried to distract the whales by throwing them fish, banging on the water with steel buckets and giving them hand and voice commands.

Hey they are rewarding us with food ! We must be doing this right !

Nothing worked. Byrne came up screaming one more time ...

Sounds like she's really having fun ! ( Orcas often mistake human screams for sounds of enjoyment .. They get rewarded when all those people in the stands do it ... )

...and then, as the whale swam round and round the pool with Byrne in its mouth, she finally drowned. It was several hours before her body could be recovered.

She must not want to play any more..

She had ten tooth marks on her body, the largest on her left thigh, but was otherwise untouched. The whales had stripped her clothes off.

Gee, nobody told the Orcas to remove their teeth when playing with those little whales with the loose skin and deformed fins..

"It was just a tragic accident," Sealand manager Alejandro Bolz told newspaper reporters. "I just cannot explain it."

Uhh, yes you can .. The trainer quoted above had no problem explaining it...

To them it was a play session, and she was in the water ..

 

[Buckaroo]

Wrong word. It's uncommon. I dare you to find an account of an orca killing or injuring a human in the wild.

As was pointed out by others earlier in the thread, it isn't at all clear that the orca was intentionally trying to harm the trainer. It was the behavior that led to the death that I was referring to, not the (possibly accidental) death itself. Similar behavior shown by a pilot whale in the video I linked to could easily have resulted in death. It was pure luck that it didn't.

For orcas, the problems seem specific to captive animals. No wild orca has ever done what Tilikum did on Wednesday.

Orcas specifically? No. Other species of toothed whale? Yes. There are numerous reports of injuries to humans from aggressive wild dolphins, and as seen above, a nearly fatal incident involving a pilot whale. That there are no documented accounts of attacks by orcas in the wild probably has more to do with frequency of contact than anything else.

 

[JcR]

Keiko like Tilikum was another two year old Orca captured near Iceland.
Keiko survived 5 years after being freed from the bathtubs he had been so accustomed to, before he finally passed from complications from pneumonia.
Though Keiko never did kick the human attachment to the curb... I wonder if a successful reintroduction to his pod (which is unclear if his pod was ever located) would have been the ticket for its final push away from human dependencies. Learning how to be an Orca; learned from others Orcas.
This reintroduced Orca may have never been accepted into any resident pods. A social outcast maybe an outcast of its own choosing... Well choosing to fall back onto us.
But in the end I feel Keiko had too many negatives against him from the beginning of the reinstatement; Underweight, weak immune system, too many seafood candy bars, and a respiratory system not accustomed to life in the ocean. ......If anything he did live to be 26 or 27. Seven years of freedom.

Maybe a life stuck in and near his baypen would have been best. I'm sure there was many interim success stories with it all, (and there was), and definitely a more educational experience than what the Seaworlds or Marinelands have to offer.

 

[varwoche]

Orcas specifically? No. Other species of toothed whale? Yes. There are numerous reports of injuries to humans from aggressive wild dolphins, and as seen above, a nearly fatal incident involving a pilot whale.

Though it seems that most (all?) of the time the incidents are provoked by the person.

 

[I Ratant]

Canadian Serial Killer Strikes Again In Florida - Will Probably Walk(Swim) Away From All Charges - Obama Does Nothing
...

.
Oh happy day!
I've passe this on to the rightwingnuts that fill my mail box with Obamadidit crap!

 

[I Ratant]

I believe it's a misuse of the word ' kill ' and an intent to villainise this creature, when there is no reason to believe it intended to kill these people..
...

.
Lemme see here...
I'm gonna count up the number of times I've wanted to jump in the water with anything larger than a rubber duckie...
Umm... zero!
Despite all the pleadings for the intention or lack thereof for this Killer Whale,
it is dangerous to people.
QED.
Therefore, send it off to the paradise where the smallpox virus resides.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Do Orcas think human trainers want to play Orca games ?

Maybe those wet suits that look like Orcas have something to do with it ..

( Yes, dawn was wearing a similar suit when Tilikum decided to play .. )

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

JESUS! Some of you just can't read!

Here's the post made by someone else:


and I said:



The highlighted part is what I was agreeing with! That it's probably not a bad idea to limit his contact with trainers, that he should be kept in a different tank, a viewing tank. Though I don't know how practical that is or what other options there are.

WHERE DID I EVER SAY HE SHOULD BE KILLED? SHOW ME!

Jeeze! GET OFF! This is really pissing me off to be yelled at because you didn't read it!

It happens when a pronoun is used. "That" could have referred to either comment of Zig's.

So, my apologies for misreading your comment, but you needn't have a cow over it.

 

[Pinkymcfatfat]

I think it's rather stupid to expect any apex predator to get 'friendly' with humans. 'Grizzly Man' thought he could hang out with bears. He got eaten. Roy Horn thought he could domesticate tigers and nearly died.

Killer Whales are also apex predators. Something tells me they might not like jumping through hoops and bouncing balls on their noses as much as trainers might think they do.

 

[Sabrina]

Do Orcas think human trainers want to play Orca games ?

Maybe those wet suits that look like Orcas have something to do with it ..

( Yes, dawn was wearing a similar suit when Tilikum decided to play .. )

As I understand it (I asked while I was visiting Seaworld last October) the trainers wear those colors because it makes them resemble whale calves. The whales are less likely to harm them, supposedly, as a result.

Maybe they want to rethink that notion now.

 

[William Parcher]

When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Having just watched today's Sea World press conference., I wanted to comment on the disgusting reaction of some in the media over this incident.

Unbelievable. One reporter was demanding to know if the police had been given the tapes of the incident. The police? It's an occupational death, not a murder. He went on about how reckless it was the public might be near the edge of the tank. The whale's been near people for more than 20 years. Are these people that afraid of animals?

Three deaths and the news media is making hay of it. CNN found the most vocal PETA-type person to scream and yell at Jack Hanna.

The three camps seem to be:
1) Kill the beast.
2) Free Willie and close every zoo in the world.
3) There's enough good with the bad in zoos and aquariums, these animals do OK in captivity if the conditions are right and this was an accident not an attack.

I'm in camp 3. I think we should work to improve zoos and aquariums, but they do contribute to animal conservation and education and every caged wild animal is not worse off than every uncaged wild animal.

Also, as far as this being an apparent accident as opposed to an attack, they've been reporting the whale grabbed the trainer's hair, one eyewitness interviewed said the whale thrashed/shook the trainer, and the death was reported to be "injuries" and drowning.

I think one likely scenario here is the woman's neck was broken in the first few minutes of the incident. It would be interesting to know just what injuries the Sea World official was referring to.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

As I understand it (I asked while I was visiting Seaworld last October) the trainers wear those colors because it makes them resemble whale calves. The whales are less likely to harm them, supposedly, as a result.

Maybe they want to rethink that notion now.

Yeah, dressing them up as seals would probably be more entertaining..


( Just kidding ... )

P.S. My Googling informs me, when Orcas are born, the light patches are orange.. Not sure how long they stay that way ..

When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

Probably not, but if they are grabbing a human when they think it is a baby whale, something might break before the weight difference kicks in ..

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think it's rather stupid to expect any apex predator to get 'friendly' with humans. 'Grizzly Man' thought he could hang out with bears. He got eaten. Roy Horn thought he could domesticate tigers and nearly died.

Killer Whales are also apex predators. Something tells me they might not like jumping through hoops and bouncing balls on their noses as much as trainers might think they do.

I'm not so sure. Many species of whales and dolphins are known to play in the wild. Dolphins love to swim in boat wakes, for example, and this behavior is not related to finding food.

That doesn't mean these animals never experience anger and sadness along with pleasure.

We have no way of knowing what this animal was feeling or what the animal intended to do by the behavior or what the animal knew about the outcome of its actions.

 

[I Ratant]

...
3) There's enough good with the bad in zoos and aquariums, these animals do OK in captivity if the conditions are right and this was an accident not an attack.

I'm in camp 3. I think we should work to improve zoos and aquariums, but they do contribute to animal conservation and education and every caged wild animal is not worse off than every uncaged wild animal.

...

.
What would be the proper conditions for a large apex predator in confinement?
I kinda think no confinement is proper.
Those floppy dorsal fins on the Orcas aren't natural.
What causes those?
White sharks have the good sense to die in captivity.

 

[Sabrina]

When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

Unlikely, but as I said, that's what they told me. Whether it's actually the case or not I couldn't say; I'm not an orca.