Omniscience - is it a problem for God?

[wollery]

Seems to me youv'e got it a bit backwards. Wilful ignorance is not being open to God's word and His truth! There are no excuses when it comes to the question I will always ask others,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" I would suggest you think about it!

I'm not going to spend eternity anywhere, since there is no afterlife, no heaven or hell. When I die, that's it, time's up. This life is all we have, so why should I waste any of it trying to prepare for an afterlife that doesn't exist?

As for your definition of wilful ignorance, I think you need to go check an English language textbook. Ignorance is lack of knowledge, and wilful ignorance is therefore the intentional avoidance of knowledge. I think you'll find that most of the people who post in this forum know at least as much scripture as you do, and almost certainly know more than you do about how the bible was developed as a work of literature. They are therefore not ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of "God's word". The difference is that, having studied the scripture and its history, they have come to realise that it is a work of fiction written by men who wanted a means to explain the world, and exploited by men who wanted to control it.

 

[Taffer]

Seems to me youv'e got it a bit backwards. Wilful ignorance is not being open to God's word and His truth! There are no excuses when it comes to the question I will always ask others,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" I would suggest you think about it!

Where do I want to spend eternity? Living. Where will I spend eternity? The same place as everyone else. 6 feet under, feeding the worms. This isn't an excuse, it's a statement of where I'll be after I die.

Consider this: If god really was Omnicient, could he create a bolder that even he couldn't lift? If the answer is yes, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't lift. If the answer is no, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't do. Which is it?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Where do I want to spend eternity? Living. Where will I spend eternity? The same place as everyone else. 6 feet under, feeding the worms. This isn't an excuse, it's a statement of where I'll be after I die.

Consider this: If god really was Omnicient, could he create a bolder that even he couldn't lift? If the answer is yes, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't lift. If the answer is no, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't do. Which is it?

Revelation 2:10-12
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

 

[Beleth]

Consider this: If god really was Omnicient, could he create a bolder that even he couldn't lift? If the answer is yes, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't lift. If the answer is no, then he isn't omnicient because there is something he can't do. Which is it?

1) It's spelled "omniscient", with an "s". And "boulder".

2) Have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons, or any role-playing game where there are a bunch of players and one Game Master?

Can the Game Master make a boulder in his game that is so big that he can't lift it?

 

[Taffer]

1) It's spelled "omniscient", with an "s". And "boulder".

I can't spell, so I guess that means everything is meaningless.

2) Have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons, or any role-playing game where there are a bunch of players and one Game Master?

Yes, I have played DnD.

Can the Game Master make a boulder in his game that is so big that he can't lift it?

No, the Dungeon Master can't make anything. He can imagine a boulder in the game universe, but not in real life. Are you saying that our real life is just the imagination of God, who is playing a gigantic game of DnD? Also, it still doesn't answer the question. Can God create a boulder even he can't lift? If yes, he isn't omniscient, if no he isn't omniscient.

 

[Jon.]

Actually, Taffer, I think the word you're looking for is "omnipotent", meaning "able to do anything."

"Omniscient" means "all-knowing".

 

[Taffer]

Hmm, I do believe you're right, Jon. How I do feel silly... I thought something looked wrong.

Originally posted by Taffer
Consider this: If god really wasOmnipotent, could he create a bolder that even he couldn't lift? If the answer is yes, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't lift. If the answer is no, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't do. Which is it?

Fixed because I'm an idiot.

 

[Beleth]

I can't spell, so I guess that means everything is meaningless.

Your words, not mine.

No, the Dungeon Master can't make anything. He can imagine a boulder in the game universe, but not in real life. Are you saying that our real life is just the imagination of God, who is playing a gigantic game of DnD?

I am pointing out the difference between two possible realms of existence, and how a question that spans the realms is rendered moot.

Also, it still doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does. You just don't like the answer.

 

[Taffer]

Your words, not mine.

Oh! You're right! Because I spelt something wrong, I've not a leg to stand on when someone corrects my mistake.

I am pointing out the difference between two possible realms of existence, and how a question that spans the realms is rendered moot.

No, you are trying to answer a question that you can't by using a very very bad example.

Yes, it does. You just don't like the answer.

Right, because I'm just an atheist who refuses to see the obvious truth of God's existence and will burn in hell.

And you've 'answered' the question like this.

Q) Can god make a boulder he can't lift? Yes = not omnipotent, no = not omnipotent.
A) He can, because in DnD the DM can imagine a boulder stronger then he can lift in real life.

Yep, you've answered the question all right.

Oh, no, wait, you havn't.

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by Taffer
Consider this: If god really was Omnipotent, could he create a bolder that even he couldn't lift? If the answer is yes, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't lift. If the answer is no, then he isn't omnipotent because there is something he can't do. Which is it?

But this very example was invented by Christian theologists to illustrate the meaning of omnipotence. What you are saying is that God cannot go beyond the confines of logic. But it makes no sense to say that it is a limitation on God's power that he is limited by logic. It is like saying that he is not omnipotent if he can't make a four sided triangle.

That is why the traditional definition has it that omnipotence means that God has every intrinsically possible power. So it does not say that God is incapable of lifting the boulder, he is incapable of simultaneously performing two mutually exclusive acts.

 

[Robin]

Seems to me youv'e got it a bit backwards. Wilful ignorance is not being open to God's word and His truth! There are no excuses when it comes to the question I will always ask others,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" I would suggest you think about it!

And again you imply that this 'loving' God that is supposed to be our conscience will torture people for eternity if they don't obey him. What part of 'love' don't you understand? What part of 'moral' don't you understand?

What would you say about a man that would torture people that don't obey him? Saddam Hussein comes to mind.

So if you will always ask the question I will always answer - no matter how bad Hell might be it will always be better than eternity in the spider hole of a torturer.

 

[Taffer]

But this very example was invented by Christian theologists to illustrate the meaning of omnipotence. What you are saying is that God cannot go beyond the confines of logic. But it makes no sense to say that it is a limitation on God's power that he is limited by logic. It is like saying that he is not omnipotent if he can't make a four sided triangle.

That is why the traditional definition has it that omnipotence means that God has every intrinsically possible power. So it does not say that God is incapable of lifting the boulder, he is incapable of simultaneously performing two mutually exclusive acts.

This is answer enough, I guess. It still seems a little ad hoc. "Oh, that's because we didn't really mean totally omnipotent". Oh well.

 

[kurious_kathy]

And again you imply that this 'loving' God that is supposed to be our conscience will torture people for eternity if they don't obey him. What part of 'love' don't you understand? What part of 'moral' don't you understand?

What would you say about a man that would torture people that don't obey him? Saddam Hussein comes to mind.

So if you will always ask the question I will always answer - no matter how bad Hell might be it will always be better than eternity in the spider hole of a torturer.

You don't get it. The natural consequences of sin is death and hell. And God is not the one that condemns us to hell. He gave us the way out. By believing Him, that He sent His Son to die for us.
Jesus died so we might live. But you must believe and confess to Him that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness. Then He is faithful to forgive each and everyone of us. Repentance is a heart confession if you ask me. And I tell Him I need Him everyday!

 

[drkitten]

This is answer enough, I guess. It still seems a little ad hoc. "Oh, that's because we didn't really mean totally omnipotent". Oh well.

C.S. Lewis has a formulation that may seem a little less ad hoc. "A meaningless sentence will not gain meaning just because someone chooses to prepend to it the words '[God] can'." It is, for example, to speak of a four-sided triangle, and so speaking of God creating a four-sided triangle doesn't suddenly make the phrase meaningful.

Similarly, the phrase "a rock so heavy an omnipotent being cannot lift it" is equally nonsensical.

 

[Ossai]

kurious_Kathy

And God is not the one that condemns us to hell. He gave us the way out.

No, god determined before you were even born whether or not you would go to heaven or hell. You have no choice in the matter at all. Now if you’ve actually read the bible or can use google, the verses are very straight forward as to the predestination bit.

It’s nothing more than a means of declaring yourself better than someone else.

(FYI I'm out of town till late next week. If you still haven't found the verses I'll post them then.)

Ossai

 

[Robin]

C.S. Lewis has a formulation that may seem a little less ad hoc. "A meaningless sentence will not gain meaning just because someone chooses to prepend to it the words '[God] can'." It is, for example, to speak of a four-sided triangle, and so speaking of God creating a four-sided triangle doesn't suddenly make the phrase meaningful.

Similarly, the phrase "a rock so heavy an omnipotent being cannot lift it" is equally nonsensical.

However as I have said before Lewis' formulation is famously circular because it assumes the naive definition of omnipotence. The phrase is supposedly made nonsensical using the definition that an omnipotent being can do anything.

But the phrase 'lift an unliftable rock' is also meaningless and a meaningless phrase will not gain meaning just because you choose to prepend to it the words 'God can'.

Lewis has defined an intrinsic impossibility in terms of omnipotence when omnipotence is defined in terms of intrinsic impossibility.

There is no reason to suppose that God might prefer change to permanance in any given situation. To say that God can't create an unliftable rock is no different to saying that God can't create an indestructible Kingdom. I doubt that many theists would be happy with that one.

If my formulation seems ad hoc well I probably haven't explained it well - it seems to have been part of theological discource for some centuries now and in its normal form it does not specify whether God can do one or the other, merely points out the mutual exclusion.

And Lewis is the first to point out that he is no theologian.

If I pray for a long life for myself and a sudden death for my landlord and he prays for the same thing, names reversed, then God can grant either or neither prayer, but he can't grant both.

So we have identified another thing that God can't do and it shows that the naive definition 'God can do anything' does not work.

When you say 'God can't lift the rock', or 'God can't create an unliftable rock' you are really saying 'God cannot go beyond the bounds of logic'.

You are saying - omnipotence should mean 'can do anything even trash the rules of logic'. I don't think that anybody (except 1inChrist) would want that sort of God.

 

[Robin]

You don't get it. The natural consequences of sin is death and hell. And God is not the one that condemns us to hell.

Don't tell me I don't get it, I probably know the formula better than you. But are you saying that God did not create hell?

Do you have children? If you had children that you loved and they turned away from you would you want them to suffer? Or would you want them to be happy anyway?

Suppose it was in your power to prevent their suffering would you withhold all help until they accepted you? Or would you alleviate their suffering anyway?

Would you set some arbitrary limit on when they could come back to you? Of course not that is not how love works. Why should love work any differently for God.

If the alternative to accepting God is eternal torment then that is because God has decided that it should be so.

Also you are saying that not believing something is a sin and that torture is the just punishment for not believing

He gave us the way out. By believing Him, that He sent His Son to die for us.

But I don't believe. Are you saying I should lie and say that I do? Is lying to God not a sin? I think that if there is a God then he might know it was a lie, don't you?

It's like if I asked you to believe that George Bush was from the planet Mars. Could you just make yourself believe that? Of course not, that is not how belief works.

Jesus died so we might live. But you must believe and confess to Him that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness. Then He is faithful to forgive each and everyone of us. Repentance is a heart confession if you ask me. And I tell Him I need Him everyday!

You don't need to keep endlessly repeating this, I have heard it a thousand times before. Everybody that has a conscience is sorry for the things they did wrong in their heart. I do not fool myself that some event two thousand years ago will make it all OK. I will try to make things right if I can, but take responsibility anyway.

But take the Muslim or Jew. They are sincere in their belief and often live a life based on the idea of obedience to God. I know many Muslims who are dedicated to charity works.

So someone who has no other wish than to dedicate their life to loving and serving God will also be tortured eternally because they did not subscribe to one particular religion?

And God's is entirely powerless to do anything but this?

Oh please just go away and think about it.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Do you have children? If you had children that you loved and they turned away from you would you want them to suffer? Or would you want them to be happy anyway?
Would you set some arbitrary limit on when they could come back to you? Of course not that is not how love works. Why should love work any differently for God.

If the alternative to accepting God is eternal torment then that is because God has decided that it should be so.

Also you are saying that not believing something is a sin and that torture is the just punishment for not believing

But I don't believe. Are you saying I should lie and say that I do? Is lying to God not a sin? I think that if there is a God then he might know it was a lie, don't you?

You don't need to keep endlessly repeating this, I have heard it a thousand times before. Everybody that has a conscience is sorry for the things they did wrong in their heart. I do not fool myself that some event two thousand years ago will make it all OK. I will try to make things right if I can, but take responsibility anyway.
So someone who has no other wish than to dedicate their life to loving and serving God will also be tortured eternally because they did not subscribe to one particular religion?

And God's is entirely powerless to do anything but this?

Oh please just go away and think about it.

God created hell for the angels that rebelled against Him first.

And yes, I have 4 children which I pray everyday will be in heaven too. I ask God to give them a love for Him, so they will choose to follow. All I can do is try to live an example of faith for my kids now. I feel I blew it alot in my pagan days. Set a bad example for them which I also pray God will restore the lost years the locusts have eaten. God is faithful even if we aren't. But I now have a heart that yearns for Him. I share when I can w/others. It's not people pleasing that matters to me as much as God pleasing. Each of us must choose whom we serve!
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit

 

[Robin]

And yes, I have 4 children which I pray everyday will be in heaven too. I ask God to give them a love for Him, so they will choose to follow. All I can do is try to live an example of faith for my kids now. I feel I blew it alot in my pagan days. Set a bad example for them which I also pray God will restore the lost years the locusts have eaten. God is faithful even if we aren't. But I now have a heart that yearns for Him. I share when I can w/others. It's not people pleasing that matters to me as much as God pleasing. Each of us must choose whom we serve! Galatians 3:14

Oddly you didn't answer my question. Supposing (and I hope this never happens) your children rejected you, turned away from you. Would you want them to suffer? If it was within your power to prevent it would you let them suffer just because they rejected you? I am guessing that you wouldn't. I am guessing that you would do everything within your power to prevent their suffering whether or not they accepted you. I know I would.

Now you say that God is love. And don't forget that everything is within God's power. So why would God allow someone to suffer just because they genuinely didn't believe that God existed? Why would God allow someone to suffer just because they sincerely followed some different religion? Why would God even allow a sinner to suffer that believed in God but rejected him?

Why is God's love less powerful than our own love for our children?

God created hell for the angels that rebelled against Him first ...
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit

By the way we have heard all this stuff thousands of times before, there is really no point in quoting this stuff yet again. Why don't you use the time to actually address some of the points I raised?

 

[gnome]

When you say 'God can't lift the rock', or 'God can't create an unliftable rock' you are really saying 'God cannot go beyond the bounds of logic'.

You are saying - omnipotence should mean 'can do anything even trash the rules of logic'. I don't think that anybody (except 1inChrist) would want that sort of God.

I'm actually fine with that... until someone changes course and says that you can't apply logic to God, whenever it's pointed out that God supposedly did something that doesn't make sense.

If that argument is ruled out, then you have consistency.