Omniscience - is it a problem for God?

[ernon]

But, since we are creatures, not gods, we can not be given all the attributes of God. Mainly his sinless, holy, perfect nature.

Please, would you explain the logic that leads from your first statement to your conclusion above?

I see nothing in the inherent state of man that would preclude his being created perfect, sinless or holy (other than we obviously aren't). In fact, those are the qualities being attributed to another man a couple thousand years ago, who encouraged others to be just like him. If it were not possible, what kind of hoax was he perpetrating and for what purpose?

So far the Christian arguements have, at best, been self defining which makes them worthless in this type of discussion. You can't use dogma to prove dogma.

Scott

 

[ernon]

..Maybe the assumed god cannot even say, after all his definition is "I AM that I AM" or better translated: "I will be what I be..."

I can't remember exactly, but I think that's called the Popeye Postulate; "I am what I am and that's all that I am."

Scott

 

[Ossai]

stamenflicker

That's like saying I would have to create a senario in which I will be robbed before I could forgive the robber, when in reality all I chose to do was live in a world with unlocked doors.

Hey I’m not the one that said it, you are. I just pointed out the absurdity.

Ossai

 

[stamenflicker]

Os,

Hey I’m not the one that said it, you are. I just pointed out the absurdity.

I think you must have misunderstood me somewhere along the way... I believe the assumed god created a world with unlocked doors which allows omni-benevolence to exist. In a world with all locked doors, it would never exist. That's different from saying he set up a situation specifically to bait a robber into his home: i.e. like putting out a sign that says... "Gold pieces inside, doors open, I leave at 8:00AM. Pease rob me so I can forgive you."

Flick

 

[kurious_kathy]

Let's ask Hank? The Bible answer man.
CHRISTIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE
P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
Web: www.equip.org Tel: 949.858.6100 Fax: 949.858.6111


Tue Aug 23 13:13:11 2005
Perspective: CP0723

the attributes of god



Life Magazine recently asked the provocative question: “WHO IS GOD?” Many answers have been given throughout the ages to reply to this question — but the real answer comes from the Bible. We ought to ask ourselves what does the Bible have to say? Just who is the Christian God, and what is He like?



The Bible reveals God to be the infinite, personal Being who is both creator and sustainer of the universe. By infinite, we mean that God has no limitations or boundaries, particularly when it comes to His divine attributes. So, in effect, God is understood to be everything man is not — independent, eternal, immaterial, unchanging, all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present throughout His creation.



God’s perfection extends also to His inner character. As a personal Being, God is morally perfect. The Scriptures therefore describe God as being pure, righteous, just, holy, true, and loving. To some extent, God shares these attributes with mankind who is made in His image and likeness.



This one God, who is the sovereign ruler of the universe, has further revealed Himself as three distinguishable persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one true God is the triune God — one in essence, but three in personality. As one theologian put it, “One What, and Three Who’s.”



This awesome God, who is apart from the world, brings the world into existence out of nothing and keeps it together. He is therefore both the all-mighty creator and the sustainer of the universe.



What is most difficult to fathom, however, is that this wonderful God wants to have a relationship with you and me. In fact, Jesus Christ gave His life to redeem us from the bondage of our sins. This righteous and holy God is also gracious and merciful. God (in Jesus Christ) has done for us what we could never do for ourselves. The all-powerful creator is also our personal Lord and Savior.



To this we can only say, “to God alone be the glory!”



On the identity and attributes of God, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION



Two books we recommend on this subject are Know The Truth (IVP) by Bruce Milne (B102/$16), and Knowing God (IVP) by J.I. Packer (SB810/$12). These resources are available through CRI. For prices and shipping and handling information, please refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, please call toll-free (888)7000-CRI. To receive a free copy of our Resource Listing, call, fax or write us with your request (information below and at the top of this page).

 

[Jon.]

Let's ask Hank? The Bible answer man.
CHRISTIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE
P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
Web: www.equip.org Tel: 949.858.6100 Fax: 949.858.6111


Tue Aug 23 13:13:11 2005
Perspective: CP0723

the attributes of god



Life Magazine recently asked the provocative question: “WHO IS GOD?” Many answers have been given throughout the ages to reply to this question — but the real answer comes from the Bible. We ought to ask ourselves what does the Bible have to say? Just who is the Christian God, and what is He like?



The Bible reveals God to be the infinite, personal Being who is both creator and sustainer of the universe. By infinite, we mean that God has no limitations or boundaries, particularly when it comes to His divine attributes. So, in effect, God is understood to be everything man is not — independent, eternal, immaterial, unchanging, all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present throughout His creation.



God’s perfection extends also to His inner character. As a personal Being, God is morally perfect. The Scriptures therefore describe God as being pure, righteous, just, holy, true, and loving. To some extent, God shares these attributes with mankind who is made in His image and likeness.



This one God, who is the sovereign ruler of the universe, has further revealed Himself as three distinguishable persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one true God is the triune God — one in essence, but three in personality. As one theologian put it, “One What, and Three Who’s.”



This awesome God, who is apart from the world, brings the world into existence out of nothing and keeps it together. He is therefore both the all-mighty creator and the sustainer of the universe.



What is most difficult to fathom, however, is that this wonderful God wants to have a relationship with you and me. In fact, Jesus Christ gave His life to redeem us from the bondage of our sins. This righteous and holy God is also gracious and merciful. God (in Jesus Christ) has done for us what we could never do for ourselves. The all-powerful creator is also our personal Lord and Savior.



To this we can only say, “to God alone be the glory!”



On the identity and attributes of God, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION



Two books we recommend on this subject are Know The Truth (IVP) by Bruce Milne (B102/$16), and Knowing God (IVP) by J.I. Packer (SB810/$12). These resources are available through CRI. For prices and shipping and handling information, please refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, please call toll-free (888)7000-CRI. To receive a free copy of our Resource Listing, call, fax or write us with your request (information below and at the top of this page).

Thank you, Kathy, for adding absolutely nothing to this debate.

 

[gnome]

It really is odd, how just the fact that there is a discussion about god, causes a posting with irrelevant praise for God and Jesus.

I would say to those that post such things--you're not helping your case... you sound like parrots repeating the same statements over and over again when they hear a word they like.

 

[SixSixSix]

The whole inferiority complex thing with theists is, to me, one of the biggest emotional turnoffs (even aside from their logical absurdities).

 

[kurious_kathy]

It really is odd, how just the fact that there is a discussion about god, causes a posting with irrelevant praise for God and Jesus.

I would say to those that post such things--you're not helping your case... you sound like parrots repeating the same statements over and over again when they hear a word they like.

First of all, that is God with a big G! He is in control of everyone and everything. You only exsist because He exsists. All things are made by Him and for Him. What's so hard for you guys to understand? It's not about us, it's all about Him!

 

[Donks]

First of all, that is God with a big G! He is in control of everyone and everything. You only exsist because He exsists. All things are made by Him and for Him. What's so hard for you guys to understand? It's not about us, it's all about Him!

Some people do not believe in the existance of God (I'd spell it all lowercase but in this post it'd feel like I was trying to mock you). I have seen no credible evidence of his existance, so I do not believe in him. Your question "What's so hard for you guys to understand?" tells a lot about your refusal to understand that people can have a different point of view other than your own.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Some people do not believe in the existance of God (I'd spell it all lowercase but in this post it'd feel like I was trying to mock you). I have seen no credible evidence of his existance, so I do not believe in him. Your question "What's so hard for you guys to understand?" tells a lot about your refusal to understand that people can have a different point of view other than your own.

I just don't understand how anyone could not believe in God? It has always astounded me when people claim they are athiests. It's unbelievable to me. He is the light of conscience in man.

Or are these the dudes that hurt others with no remorse. It is impossible to love without God. He is love! I can't imagine a world without love either!

 

[Donks]

I just don't understand how anyone could not believe in God? It has always astounded me when people claim they are athiests. It's unbelievable to me. He is the light of conscience in man.

I know you don't understand. You might want to try.

Or are these the dudes that hurt others with no remorse. It is impossible to love without God. He is love! I can't imagine a world without love either!

Do ou think "these dudes" are exclusively atheists? Because they are not. There are people of all faiths (and people of no faith at all) who will do terrible things with no remorse. And there are those that will use their faith to justify doing terrible things.

 

[Robin]

I just don't understand how anyone could not believe in God? It has always astounded me when people claim they are athiests. It's unbelievable to me. He is the light of conscience in man.

Perhaps because you simply have never tried to understand. We could ask what evidence you have that we could test for the existence of God.

We could ask to what extent you go along with the Bible, do you accept, for example, that the Old Testament describes a brutal and highly immoral God?

Or are these the dudes that hurt others with no remorse.

No. Generally speaking atheists are no different from theists in this respect. I don't go round hurting people. I don't demand to be rewarded with eternal bliss for this either. But as I said, it depends if you are talking about the Old Testament God, who led Joshua to murder every man, woman and child in Jericho with no remorse. To me that is utterly immoral and could not therefore believe in the God described here.

But seriously can you say that you believe that the God that led Joshua to murder every man, woman and child in Jericho to be the light of conscience in man?

It is impossible to love without God. He is love! I can't imagine a world without love either! [/B]

I manage to love without God.

 

[kurious_kathy]

I know you don't understand. You might want to try.


Do ou think "these dudes" are exclusively atheists? Because they are not. There are people of all faiths (and people of no faith at all) who will do terrible things with no remorse. And there are those that will use their faith to justify doing terrible things.

No way! It was terrible being a pagan before I came to faith. Jesus cleared those deceptions up real fast. But not believing in the only one that matters, impossible!

And I will restate and boldly claim the truth, "everything outside of Christ leads to death!" His sheep do hear His voice! I am just very thankful to know I am a child of God! The only true living God! You may ask how I know this? Because I believe Him!

Wide is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads me home! I take these words to heart!!

 

[Donks]

No way! It was terrible being a pagan before I came to faith. Jesus cleared those deceptions up real fast. But not believing in the only one that matters, impossible!

And I will restate and boldly claim the truth, "everything outside of Christ leads to death!" His sheep do hear His voice! I am just very thankful to know I am a child of God! The only true living God! You may ask how I know this? Because I believe Him!

Wide is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads me home! I take these words to heart!!

So you won't even try to understand someone else's point of view. Ok, goodbye, I'm going to argue with that wall over there.

 

[Christian Dude]

Please, would you explain the logic that leads from your first statement to your conclusion above?

I see nothing in the inherent state of man that would preclude his being created perfect, sinless or holy (other than we obviously aren't). In fact, those are the qualities being attributed to another man a couple thousand years ago, who encouraged others to be just like him. If it were not possible, what kind of hoax was he perpetrating and for what purpose?

So far the Christian arguements have, at best, been self defining which makes them worthless in this type of discussion. You can't use dogma to prove dogma.

Scott

Scott, I was responding to Camillus and his thoughts and questions. I think Camillus’ major pretense was that God could not be omniscient if he had to come and redeem his creation because it all went bad and he didn’t expect that.

My argument is that because of free will and the Lords desire to have his creatures return his love freely, not be robots programmed to worship him or fake their love because of fear, that he knew ahead of time what would be required to accomplish his purpose. And that because there are attributes of God that can not be passed down to us, we first reject the Lord and fall into sin before we repent (turn around) and choose to love him back. So the conclusion of my first paragraph is showing that we could not stay sinless and the Lord knew that and went ahead and created us anyhow.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but because of free will and them not being gods but creatures, they fell into sin. Satan made it happen quicker but can not actually be blamed for their sin. Jesus was sinless because he was God, God the Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. He and the Apostles encourage us to strive to be perfect and holy like him. Can we achieve that in this life? No, but Jesus still wants us to put our best effort in work for that. Jesus also sent the Holy Sprit, the third person of the Holy Trinity, as a helper for us to actually make progress in this area. With out being indwelt by the Holy Sprit we would not even begin to be able to reduce the amount of sin in our lives. So this is no hoax being perpetrated on man kind. We are not expected to be perfect, the Lord is pleading with his beloved children to return to him and then side with him to fight the good fight to win more of his children.

Christian arguments are, for the most part, based on scripture, and scripture says that all people know deep down God exists, Romans 1:20, and that his word will not return void, Isaiah 55:11. I really believe that and believe that about you, so when I base my argument on scripture, and because of what scripture says about you knowing deep down it is true, I don’t have anything better to convince you with about the truth of God and his love for you. If it is worthless to you I can live with it. I pray that someday you will see the wisdom and value in God’s word and that you will end up quoting it and arguing from it to someone else.

 

[SixSixSix]

I pray that someday you will see the wisdom and value in God’s word and that you will end up quoting it and arguing from it to someone else.

How condescending.

How would you feel if we replied that we hope some day you'll realise what a bunch of nonsense all that god stuff was, and join us in trying to save others from this wilful ignorance? I suspect you would be offended.

"Do unto others..."

 

[gnome]

First of all, that is God with a big G! He is in control of everyone and everything. You only exsist because He exsists. All things are made by Him and for Him. What's so hard for you guys to understand? It's not about us, it's all about Him!

Does that mean that every discussion about it must suddenly change into endless praise that lends nothing to the original question?

 

[Ossai]

kurious_Kathy

So, in effect, God is understood to be everything man is not — independent, eternal, immaterial, unchanging, all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present throughout His creation.

Where in the bible specifically is god described in these ways?

God’s perfection extends also to His inner character. As a personal Being, God is morally perfect.

Malachi 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

2 Kings 2:23-24 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

This one God, who is the sovereign ruler of the universe, has further revealed Himself as three distinguishable persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Where? God as the father, ok. Jesus as the son – but Jesus, as has already been pointed out, didn’t fulfill the messianic requirements. At best he was a deluded believer at worst he was an anti-christ. Actually, if according to other parts of the bible he was clearly a false prophet. He made predictions that did not come true which means he was not from god.

He is therefore both the all-mighty creator and the sustainer of the universe.

Unless you’re in an iron chariot.

First of all, that is God with a big G! He is in control of everyone and everything. You only exsist because He exsists. All things are made by Him and for Him. What's so hard for you guys to understand? It's not about us, it's all about Him!

And insecure. God had to create a mass of humanity just so they would worship.

And I will restate and boldly claim the truth, "everything outside of Christ leads to death!"

Apparently so does everything inside of Christ. I’ve not seen any immortal beings wandering around lately.

His sheep do hear His voice! I am just very thankful to know I am a child of God! The only true living God! You may ask how I know this? Because I believe Him!

So you hear voices in your head and then wonder why we don’t believe you?

Christian Dude

My argument is that because of free will and the Lords desire to have his creatures return his love freely, not be robots programmed to worship him or fake their love because of fear, that he knew ahead of time what would be required to accomplish his purpose. And that because there are attributes of God that can not be passed down to us, we first reject the Lord and fall into sin before we repent (turn around) and choose to love him back. So the conclusion of my first paragraph is showing that we could not stay sinless and the Lord knew that and went ahead and created us anyhow.

That’s nothing more than a protection racquet.

Do what I say or burn in hell.
A hell that god specifically created as punishment.
A message that was only sent to a very small number of people.
A contradictory instruction book.
A life where the majority of people would never be exposed to the message at all or exposed to it in such a manner to make it seem like all the other mythologies.

From observation it looks like god wants people to go to hell, regardless of what the book says.

Jesus was sinless because he was God, God the Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity.

Where are you getting this from anyway? I’m looking for specific chapter and verse. It’s already been established that Jesus wasn’t the messiah.

Christian arguments are, for the most part, based on scripture, and scripture says that all people know deep down God exists, Romans 1:20, and that his word will not return void, Isaiah 55:11.

Scripture is proven a lie yet again.

I really believe that and believe that about you, so when I base my argument on scripture, and because of what scripture says about you knowing deep down it is true, I don’t have anything better to convince you with about the truth of God and his love for you.

So your best argument is based on a lie.

Ossai

 

[kurious_kathy]

How condescending.

How would you feel if we replied that we hope some day you'll realise what a bunch of nonsense all that god stuff was, and join us in trying to save others from this wilful ignorance? I suspect you would be offended.

"Do unto others..."

Seems to me youv'e got it a bit backwards. Wilful ignorance is not being open to God's word and His truth! There are no excuses when it comes to the question I will always ask others,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" I would suggest you think about it!