Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

I can't work you out. Do you actually believe this stuff?
This is the only conclusion I can come to from the Bible, how Jesus dying saves us. This is the result of my analysis of all the texts.
Jesus was a god, became a man while remaining the same person, then from a man, becomes again a god, all while still being the same person.
So out of all of heaven he is the sole god/man worthy to judge the world.
The implication being that as a representative of man, mankind of this planet will have a certain number of them extracted from the world before its destruction. Those will go through a process with Jesus.
So the crucifiction gets us to this point. Some believe this is the end of the story but I find no evidence in the Bible to support that view. What happens in individual cases comes after the crucifiction and has to do with this person in heaven and how our relationship is established, with this person.
 
Agreed.

When I was a believer I would read stuff like that and sometimes think to myself, "damn straight, good to be on the lords side." Then sometimes it was like, "WTF"?

Seriously, WTF?

The god of the Bible is not good.

.
It's not the biblical god that's not good... fiction is fiction.
It's what the loonies that take up his name and murder in it that are the problems.
Those crazies in Islam today for one.
And the long history of persecution by all sects against others, and even internally.
Crazy, all of them!
 
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Nonsense.
There is nothing to be "saved" from.
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.

do you accept the doctrine of 'original sin'?
 
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I like that verse in Samuel... couldn't ask for a better description of a crazy man's preaching.
And Sammy killed the king of the Amalekites by his own hand, when Saul wouldn't.
Crazy squared. All sanctioned by god.. Sammy says. :)

Nothing wrong with a little killing when you've got the god stamp on your hand.

This is why god belief fails.
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.
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First, no Jesus.
Ergo, no one died.
For anything like the alleged offense.
Second.. the alleged offense.
J had a finger in that, if logic is followed. One with the father, and all that.
So his death would be suicide... again, following logic, and one of those "sins" naturally.
Thirdly, it's only a very sadistic omniscience that invents original sin on purpose, and then condemns everyone born after Adam to some perdition.. which is also imaginary... and needs some street-corner loonies shouting salvation to lead us to glory.
 
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It's not the biblical god that's not good... fiction is fiction.
I've no problem inferring the morality of fictional characters and their behaviors. The fictional character of Superman is good. The fictional character of Lex Luther is bad.
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.
I can live with that but I would hasten to add that outside of mythology and ancient philosophy there is no reason to believe that salvation as it is taught in religion is anything other than mythology.

One could posit that we need saving from Cthulu but I'm not sure why we should by into that?
 
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I can live with that but I would hasten to add that outside of mythology and ancient philosophy there is no reason to believe that salvation as it is taught in religion is anything other than mythology.

One could posit that we need saving from Cthulu but I'm not sure why we should by into that?
That explains one of the avatars on this forum, I think, the Cthulu.
Well it is a very popular myth and you have to wonder what Paul was thinking when he wrote his letters. He had to be working hard to rationalize it all.
I really had to get into an intimate relationship with his thought process by debating the tiny details of his theology, with hostile and partisan opponents. I think that is the only way to understand Paul. He was not just leisurely sitting around and having flowery spiritual visions. He was constantly engaged in heated arguments.
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.


If someone was to ask me such a stupid question I'm fairly sure I could come up with a much more entertaining answer than that, and I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't think of one that made less sense.


This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.


So, how close is LOTR to becoming true?
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.

Let me try and get a straight answer out of you. Do you believe this stuff?
 
Contemporary or near contemporary extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus is thin. It consists of the following:

1) In the Annals of Imperial Rome, written probably early in the second century, Tacitus says that Jesus was put to death by Pontius Pilate for sedition. Since the Annals were written nearly a century after any historical Jesus would have died, this could be second-hand hearsay, Tacitus merely repeating what Christians said of Jesus. However, one can invoke the criterion of embarrassment, i.e. that saying your savior was a felon sentenced to death for sedition isn't something early Christians would have made up about Jesus.

Beyond that, all we have are two mentions of Jesus in Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus. One of these, the Testamentum Flavianum or, simply, the "Testimonial," which asserts Jesus was the Christ, is clearly an inserted forgery. The other, referring to the execution of James, calls him the brother of "Jesus who was called the Christ." While this could merely mean that Jesus was alleged to be the Christ, the "who was called the Christ" phrase may have been added by a later editor. Considering that Jesus (Yeshua) was an extremely common name - there are eight of them in the Antiquities, if "who was called the Christ" was a forged by an editor, we have no evidence from Josephus. This, however, could merely mean that, whoever Jesus was, he lacked the status of, say, John the Baptist.

The only contemporary evidence beyond that for the existence of Jesus are inferences from the gospels involving the criteria of embarrassment and difficulty. For example, if one was making up Jesus out of whole cloth, and he was supposed to be born in Bethlehem, then one would simply have him come from Bethlehem; end of story. However, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke go through elaborate contortions to generate the fiction that Jesus, though he came from Galilee, actually originally was born in Bethlehem, that it seem they were stuck with a real guy who came from Galilee. this would be a difficulty if one is trying to pass said messianic pretender off as the Messiah, when Micah 5:2 prophesied the Messiah would come from Bethlehem, the hometown of David.

Personally, I think that Jesus really did exist. He was probably influenced by the prophetic tradition, along with Cynic philosophy and Jewish messianism. I see him as a failed messianic pretender who was arrested for treason - possibly with his own complicity, since he actually expected to rise from the dead - and put to death.

Whether or not Jesus was historical may, in fact, be moot. Paul, the real founder of the Christian religion, simply dispenses with any historical Jesus in his epistle to the Galatians:

(Gal. 1:11, 12, emphasis added): For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me was not man's gospel For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

(Gal. 1:15 - 17, emphasis added): But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away to Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.
 
That explains one of the avatars on this forum, I think, the Cthulu.
Well it is a very popular myth and you have to wonder what Paul was thinking when he wrote his letters. He had to be working hard to rationalize it all.
I really had to get into an intimate relationship with his thought process by debating the tiny details of his theology, with hostile and partisan opponents. I think that is the only way to understand Paul. He was not just leisurely sitting around and having flowery spiritual visions. He was constantly engaged in heated arguments.

Cthulhu is a fictional character invent by H.P. Lovecraft,not a cult. The Christian Jesus is a fictional character and also a cult.
 
If someone was to ask me such a stupid question I'm fairly sure I could come up with a much more entertaining answer than that, and I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't think of one that made less sense.
So, how close is LOTR to becoming true?
I doubt you would find it an interesting enough topic to want to create a theory of it.
LOTR I would guess could be a resource to fuel much debate, but there would be parameters such as, Evidence can only come from the writings of Tolkien. If there was a point of contention between fans over the particular nature of one of the characters and why he did a certain thing, it would make sense to use internal evidence to resolve the issue.
I'm saying that if you restrict the debate on Christian theology to the evidence only coming from the Bible you get a different outcome than if you allow a whole bunch of outside sources.
My point being, what I have presented is in accordance with the strictest rules of evidence.
 
Cthulhu is a fictional character invent by H.P. Lovecraft,not a cult. The Christian Jesus is a fictional character and also a cult.
I was debating how I could separate the two things and decided people would be able to figure out where I stopped talking about the one and was then talking about the second.
But you do raise valid points and all I can say is, right, that very well may be the case, I don't know. I have a brother who met Jesus and Mohamed, standing together as brothers and maybe that means something, like they are the same in a certain way. They were originally to bring goodness and then their legends were turned to bring evil.
 
We do not approach the mountain, shaking and smoking, and with great trumpet blasts, but the quiet room where sits a man who was and is one of us.
Interesting post, it takes guts to be a mystic on a skeptics' forum. I've been reading Iris Murdoch lately and one character is a priest who has lost faith in God but believes in Christ - "I know that my Redemeer liveth," are words she puts into the mouths of two "fallen" priest in two different novels. This resonates with some experiences of mine, of a felt redemptive force with which I can strive to align myself ... but it is such a mystery, and so beyond language, that I generally don't try to articulate it. The fictional explorations of Murdoch and another author, Susan Howatch, make Christianity about as palatable to me as possible. However I've such a legalistic, literal mind that any attempt to codify this felt, woeful, woo-full faith sends me scampering into a vagueness that prohibits me from embracing the whole of any one religion.

And none of this has anything to do with whether Jesus really lived, except to make me think, he sure gained a lot of traction for a fictional dude ...

Not proof! Not proof, I know.
 
Let me try and get a straight answer out of you. Do you believe this stuff?
I believe my understanding of the topic is correct, at least as much so as I an currently able to arrive at.
Whether it is ultimately true is yet to be seen.
Meanwhile, I am against false interpretations which feed violence.
Killing people in order to pay a debt is about the worse thing imaginable to me for the world to believe in and it is a twisting of religion by Satan, or just evil people, to make religion a lie to suite their purposes.
If I am able to demonstrate in an unassailable way, that there is no such thing in the NT then I feel obligated to do so.
 
It seems to be a topic on a lot of people's mind.
If you ever have someone ask you why Jesus had to die, then now you can tell them that according to the Bible, there had to be one pure person out of all of us to represent mankind before anyone could be saved.
This is not just an opinion but the result of much study in the holy book of the Christians.

So are you saying that your conclusions are fact?



I doubt you would find it an interesting enough topic to want to create a theory of it.
LOTR I would guess could be a resource to fuel much debate, but there would be parameters such as, Evidence can only come from the writings of Tolkien. If there was a point of contention between fans over the particular nature of one of the characters and why he did a certain thing, it would make sense to use internal evidence to resolve the issue.
I'm saying that if you restrict the debate on Christian theology to the evidence only coming from the Bible you get a different outcome than if you allow a whole bunch of outside sources.My point being, what I have presented is in accordance with the strictest rules of evidence.

This isn't a debate on Christian theology, per se. It's a question on whether or not Jesus existed. The OP said, "convince me Jesus existed." Quoting from a book which some in that book take for granted Jesus existed and some who did not, one is forced to look to other sources. Perhaps Kapyong needs to repost his rundown on people likely to have reported about Jesus, people who should have but didn't, and so on. It was an interesting read.

I was solidly in the "Jesus probably existed" camp until HansMustermann and Kapyong came along. Kapyong provided clarification on the history of the subject and Hans kept hammering away at the assumptions that are apparently endemic in this debate.
 

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