Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[bikerdruid]

Son of God is a figurative term (except to Mormons), as is the lamb of God, and the Good Shepard.

Jesus came out of God or another way of saying it is He was God in the flesh. St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to describe the Trinity. Three leaves, one clove. Jesus came out of God but was not the totality of God while on earth.

doc.
this post as much as any other show you are truly sincere in your faith.
to be honest, i could almost be envoius of your certainty.
but, such is the nature of faith.

that said, with all due respect, i believe that your continuing efforts to 'prove' the tenets of your faith, with faulty and some dishonest scholarship, the more discredit do you do to your own faith.
however, your obviously unending quest to convince others that your faith is truth, as much as it is sincere, is doomed to failure.
but, such is the nature of reality.

 

[Minoosh]

There you lost me, Google 9/11 conspiracy or JFK conspiracy or alien abductions.

I meant, Google it and look at Wikipedia or at some other secular source that can spell out what has been deduced from the small amount of data we actually have.

I took a course called "Jesus of Nazareth" at a synagogue and it was great. Half Christians, half Jews and one newspaper reporter. Even if you start with a belief in God (which I'm inclined to have, it's faith, so shoot me), the Jews were like, but how does that work? How does some guy dying on a cross absolve ME of sin?

 

[RandFan]

I meant, Google it and look at Wikipedia or at some other secular source that can spell out what has been deduced from the small amount of data we actually have.

I took a course called "Jesus of Nazareth" at a synagogue and it was great. Half Christians, half Jews and one newspaper reporter. Even if you start with a belief in God (which I'm inclined to have, it's faith, so shoot me), the Jews were like, but how does that work? How does some guy dying on a cross absolve ME of sin?

Gotcha. Call me Mr. Foot-in-mouth... again.

 

[Minoosh]

I think the "historical Jesus" crap is silly and pointless. It's as valid as "historical Zeus", "historical King Arthur", "Historical Beowulf" or "Historical Jason and the Argonauts".

Yeah, it's pointless, in a way. But there are people who know things about analyzing texts, analyzing differences among the Gospels, looking for context - like, what would or would not be generally understood in a first-century Roman outpost dominated by Jews - that can make interesting, informative reading. "This is why it might have happened THIS way; this is the problem with THAT interpretation."

Here is something I've been meaning to ask a Mormon, current or former. On Fox News last Sunday a newsbabe made a reference to Mitt Romney being "obviously not a Christian" and I wondered, do people really think of LDS as non-Christian? This is off-topic, I know, but I wondered how that went down with mainstream Mormons - although perhaps I'm asking the wrong person.

 

[bikerdruid]

Yeah, it's pointless, in a way. But there are people who know things about analyzing texts, analyzing differences among the Gospels, looking for context - like, what would or would not be generally understood in a first-century Roman outpost dominated by Jews - that can make interesting, informative reading. "This is why it might have happened THIS way; this is the problem with THAT interpretation."

Here is something I've been meaning to ask a Mormon, current or former. On Fox News last Sunday a newsbabe made a reference to Mitt Romney being "obviously not a Christian" and I wondered, do people really think of LDS as non-Christian? This is off-topic, I know, but I wondered how that went down with mainstream Mormons - although perhaps I'm asking the wrong person.

for any sensible person, the study of scripture should not be based on faith, but scholarship.
a great biblical scholar need not be a believer.
nor need a believer cling to every word of scripture.
the bible is literature, mythology, and legend.
study it as such.
it ain't history and it ain't the 'truth'.

 

[Minoosh]

for any sensible person, the study of scripture should not be based on faith, but scholarship.

Scripture is always weird, have you noticed, like is that a requirement for scripture, that it be weird?

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, it's pointless, in a way. But there are people who know things about analyzing texts, analyzing differences among the Gospels, looking for context - like, what would or would not be generally understood in a first-century Roman outpost dominated by Jews - that can make interesting, informative reading. "This is why it might have happened THIS way; this is the problem with THAT interpretation."

Agreed.

Here is something I've been meaning to ask a Mormon, current or former. On Fox News last Sunday a newsbabe made a reference to Mitt Romney being "obviously not a Christian" and I wondered, do people really think of LDS as non-Christian? This is off-topic, I know, but I wondered how that went down with mainstream Mormons - although perhaps I'm asking the wrong person.

It's an interesting question. The numbers are not static but change dramatically from time to time. As I understand, the majority don't accept Mormons as Christians (never mind the name The Church Of Jesus Christ). Bear in mind that some portion of the population do not accept that Catholics are Christian. However, most accept that Catholics worship the same god. Mormons are said to believe in a different god as the "Mormon God" was once a man and Jesus is God's son (and a god) but a separate god.

Mormons are often agitated by that. The Church has taken great pains to correct what they think is a misunderstanding. Choosing to emphasize the Bible and the LDS as opposed to Mormon.

 

[Kapyong]

I'm not backing away this time. That was your position.

Back away?

First you falsely claimed that I said I had never heard of AcharyaS.
WRONG.
But you couldn't admit it.

Now you make another false claim.
But can't admit it.

I suggest you take some remedial classes on English comprehension.



K.

 

[bikerdruid]

I thought this thread was about the Historical Jesus, not the New Testament of Christ.

I'm sorry to keep harping on about them, but the Dead Sea Scrolls are actual first hand accounts of first century Palestine, why is it that everyone is ignoring them?

The original dating of around 100BCE has been shown to be nonsense.

These scrolls, according to Robert Eisenmann, are the records of the early community that baptised Paul and converted him. The same community that sent him out to the Gentiles. The same community that called him back and ticked him off for preaching the wrong stuff. The same community that tried to kill him when he continued to preach his "lies"(ie: Pauline Theology).

So, Shirley if any historical evidence for Jesus exists it would be in these scrolls, wouldn't it?

this is cool stuff.
thanks.

 

[Kapyong]

How do you prove anyone ever existed? All we can do is look at records, and where there are enough of them, perhaps we accept that as proof.

But there are no records of Jesus.

Just later records of people who BELIEVED in Jesus.
And later books written by people to convince others to believe in Jesus.

But no records of Jesus exist.
Certainly no "proof".

K.

 

[Toontown]

I took a course called "Jesus of Nazareth" at a synagogue and it was great. Half Christians, half Jews and one newspaper reporter. Even if you start with a belief in God (which I'm inclined to have, it's faith, so shoot me), the Jews were like, but how does that work? How does some guy dying on a cross absolve ME of sin?

That was my first question too, when the mechanism of redemption was explained to me. How does that work? It really makes no difference who suffers for whose sins?? If a good guy suffers, everybody gets a pass in recognition of the goodness of the good guy's suffering? I don't get it. I don't see the connection.

God: DAMN, I hate those simian bastards. Why did I ever create them? And why, oh why did I ever promise them redemption? JESUS! Get your ass down there and let those evil apes crucify you! I've gotta have some relief from all this unpunished sinning!

Jesus: Right, Daddy Dearest. Somebody has to suffer for somebody's sins. Might as well be ol' Jesus doing the suffering, right? We can't have all this sinning and nobody paying for it, right, Dad?

God: Shut up, Jesus, and get your ass down there. I want to see blood, sweat, and tears, to take my mind off all this Goddamned sinning. I'm sick of it. Now MARCH, boy! And make sure you piss them off good!

Satan: Having fun yet, Jesus? You should have joined the rebellion when you had the chance.

Jesus: Get behind me, Satan. I feel a fart coming on.

 

[RandFan]

So, Shirley if any historical evidence for Jesus exists it would be in these scrolls, wouldn't it?

I'm not sure how. My understanding is that Jesus and his disciples are not mentioned in the Scrolls,

Do you have some evidence that they are demonstrative of an historical Jesus?

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
. . .but how does that work? How does some guy dying on a cross absolve ME of sin?

I don't think it does, not directly, at least.
All I can figure is that it made him perfectly holy and clean.
It started earlier the night before, in the Garden of Gethsemani, where he was praying and he was sweating blood. He purified his own body in the righteous blood, which in this case was his own.
He went to heaven undefiled by the world in any way, to be qualified to take a particular position, one made for just such a person, if one was ever to actually show up to take it. An empty throne, from which to judge the world.
We do not approach the mountain, shaking and smoking, and with great trumpet blasts, but the quiet room where sits a man who was and is one of us.

 

[slingblade]

Nope. My church upbringing taught that it's the ultimate ancient Jewish animal sacrifice. They had to sacrifice animals to absolve them of sin, because the wages of sin are death, so when you sin, something has to die.

Of course, that's never been exactly true in Jewish dogma, but it makes a good story.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Nope. My church upbringing taught that it's the ultimate ancient Jewish animal sacrifice. They had to sacrifice animals to absolve them of sin, because the wages of sin are death, so when you sin, something has to die.

Of course, that's never been exactly true in Jewish dogma, but it makes a good story.

So...if I murder someone, wouldn't that absolve me of sin? I mean, if something has to die and I anoint the victim, uh, "offering", first, wouldn't that like absolve me of the sin?

 

[bikerdruid]

So...if I murder someone, wouldn't that absolve me of sin? I mean, if something has to die and I anoint the victim, uh, "offering", first, wouldn't that like absolve me of the sin?

the fifth commandment says , "you shall not murder."

 

[slingblade]

So...if I murder someone, wouldn't that absolve me of sin? I mean, if something has to die and I anoint the victim, uh, "offering", first, wouldn't that like absolve me of the sin?

No, no, then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the first murder, but of course then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the second murder/sacrifice and...well, it's just a never-ending and literally vicious cycle.
Gods are funny like that.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

No, no, then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the first murder, but of course then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the second murder/sacrifice and...well, it's just a never-ending and literally vicious cycle.
Gods are funny like that.

That could explain mass-murderers like Hitler and Stalin and Mao, et al...

 

[RandFan]

the fifth commandment says , "you shall not murder."

Yep, given to Moses by Yahweh. Moses then delivered the commandments to the people.

Bear in mind that Yahweh also told Moses:

You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. --Deuteronomy 20:17

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" --1 Samuel 15:3

If you ask me the commandments were not worth the stone they were written on.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

the fifth commandment says , "you shall not murder."

Yeah, cuz that's not contradicted elsewhere in the OT...

Besides, the fact that murder is a sin is the reason I would need to atone for it by providing the sacrificial offering.