Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[Dayan81]

Murder is a sin but killing men, women & children during warfare was not considered sinful.

Muslim & Christian extremists might refer to these times as "the good ol' days".

 

[RandFan]

Murder is a sin but killing men, women & children during warfare was not considered sinful.

EXACTLY! No act was a sin unless the person (human being) in charge said it was. You could kill anyone and get away with it easily if you had the dictator on your side. As I said, the Commandments were worthless. They existed only as a means to control people, and god, he was used to justify the cruelty of the dictator.

 

[Akhenaten]

Son of God is a figurative term (except to Mormons), as is the lamb of God, and the Good Shepard.

Jesus came out of God or another way of saying it is He was God in the flesh. St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to describe the Trinity. Three leaves, one clove. Jesus came out of God but was not the totality of God while on earth.

Polytheist drivel.

 

[Greediguts]

So, Shirley if any historical evidence for Jesus exists it would be in these scrolls, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily...and don't call me Shirley.

Prof. Eisenman's claims regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls have not received wide support among other scholars and archaeologists. "Eccentric" seems to be an adjective attached to his name and theories quite often. He has disagreed with the radiocarbon date given of the scrolls. Why?

I have not read his book on James so I cannot make a personal comment regarding his claims. I did see Prof. Eisenman on "The Naked Archaeologist" and was less than impressed.

 

[RandFan]

Not necessarily...and don't call me Shirley.

Prof. Eisenman's claims regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls have not received wide support among other scholars and archaeologists. "Eccentric" seems to be an adjective attached to his name and theories quite often. He has disagreed with the radiocarbon date given of the scrolls. Why?

I have not read his book on James so I cannot make a personal comment regarding his claims. I did see Prof. Eisenman on "The Naked Archaeologist" and was less than impressed.

Can you address my question? Do the Dead Sea Scrolls mention Jesus or his disciples?

 

[Greediguts]

Can you address my question? Do the Dead Sea Scrolls mention Jesus or his disciples?

No. People have tried to twist words, titles, and meanings to place JC and the boys into the Dead Sea Scrolls (Eisenman being one of a few) but these ideas don't hold up. Eisenman has gotten alot of press from his theory but the majority of scholars don't support his findings.

 

[Brainache]

I'm not sure how. My understanding is that Jesus and his disciples are not mentioned in the Scrolls,

Do you have some evidence that they are demonstrative of an historical Jesus?

You didn't read that link did you?

Bart Erhman doesn't know anything about the DSS. He is parroting the line of discredited nonsense from the people that kept them locked away from Scholars for fifty years.

Then look at what Robert Eisenmann is saying. He has been studying the DSS for twenty years at least and is certainly qualified to have an opinion.

 

[pakeha]

Son of God is a figurative term (except to Mormons), as is the lamb of God, and the Good Shepard.

Jesus came out of God or another way of saying it is He was God in the flesh. St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to describe the Trinity. Three leaves, one clove. Jesus came out of God but was not the totality of God while on earth.

I think that's the first time you've mentioned st Patrick as evidence for the existence of Jesus.

I don't think it does, not directly, at least.
All I can figure is that it made him perfectly holy and clean...snip...
We do not approach the mountain, shaking and smoking, and with great trumpet blasts, but the quiet room where sits a man who was and is one of us.

I think this video explains it all much better
http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdeity#p/a/D835E284A3AC7AA6/1/Dzuxyq3ltls

 

[Brainache]

Not necessarily...and don't call me Shirley.

Prof. Eisenman's claims regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls have not received wide support among other scholars and archaeologists. "Eccentric" seems to be an adjective attached to his name and theories quite often. He has disagreed with the radiocarbon date given of the scrolls. Why?

This apparently:
http://www.roberteisenman.com/articles/Redating_the_Radio_Carbon_Dating_of_the_DSS.pdf

I have not read his book on James so I cannot make a personal comment regarding his claims. I did see Prof. Eisenman on "The Naked Archaeologist" and was less than impressed.

I'm fairly new to all this Bible stuff, but he doesn't look like any of the Kook CT Professors that I ever saw...

 

[Ethnikos]

Nope. My church upbringing taught that it's the ultimate ancient Jewish animal sacrifice. They had to sacrifice animals to absolve them of sin, because the wages of sin are death, so when you sin, something has to die.

Of course, that's never been exactly true in Jewish dogma, but it makes a good story.

There is a curse attached to sin and the idea is to transfer that curse to something actually innocent itself of any curse or of a future curse for something it is currently doing.
Jesus, being a person, and not an animal, such as a literal lamb, would need to first somehow be rid of the curse already on him just for being born of the line of Eve, regardless of who his father may or may not have been.
I am postulating that he had to suffer first, then die, as a way of making himself an acceptable sacrifice.
Jesus himself became the mercy seat of the new covenant and his blood was what sanctified that temple object, in order to be put into use as integral with the purpose of the temple.

 

[dafydd]

There is a curse attached to sin and the idea is to transfer that curse to something actually innocent itself of any curse or of a future curse for something it is currently doing.
Jesus, being a person, and not an animal, such as a literal lamb, would need to first somehow be rid of the curse already on him just for being born of the line of Eve, regardless of who his father may or may not have been.
I am postulating that he had to suffer first, then die, as a way of making himself an acceptable sacrifice.
Jesus himself became the mercy seat of the new covenant and his blood was what sanctified that temple object, in order to be put into use as integral with the purpose of the temple.

I can't work you out. Do you actually believe this stuff?

 

[Akhenaten]

I can't work you out. Do you actually believe this stuff?

You'd have to hope not. It's horrific enough just as a fairytale.

 

[RandFan]

No. People have tried to twist words, titles, and meanings to place JC and the boys into the Dead Sea Scrolls (Eisenman being one of a few) but these ideas don't hold up. Eisenman has gotten alot of press from his theory but the majority of scholars don't support his findings.

Thanks.

 

[RandFan]

You didn't read that link did you?

Bart Erhman doesn't know anything about the DSS. He is parroting the line of discredited nonsense from the people that kept them locked away from Scholars for fifty years.

Then look at what Robert Eisenmann is saying. He has been studying the DSS for twenty years at least and is certainly qualified to have an opinion.

I'm sorry but this is both non-responsive and disappointing to say the least. Please don't tell me to go looking for something that may very well not be there? I can't prove a negative. Please cite the relevant text and the supporting references? Being dismissive and ad hominem are poor form. I don't give a damn what you think of Ehrman. I only care that you give a damn enough to demonstrate your claim.

Can you demonstrate your claim? Yes or no? If the answer is yes then please do so. I will apologize and thank you in advance and will do it again when you have acted in good faith and done so. Fair enough?

 

[RandFan]

This apparently:
http://www.roberteisenman.com/articles/Redating_the_Radio_Carbon_Dating_of_the_DSS.pdf

A 14 page, unsearchable (scanned) PDF?

We are supposed to read the entire thing because you haven't a clue what it says? Really Brainache? Really?

Look, clearly the link is about the subject but what are it's claims specifically. Typically good form requires that you quote some relevant text and provide the page number. I mean, how do we even know that you read it and are relevant with the claims purported. We KNOW the guy makes claims. That wasn't in dispute.

 

[I Ratant]

I meant, Google it and look at Wikipedia or at some other secular source that can spell out what has been deduced from the small amount of data we actually have.

I took a course called "Jesus of Nazareth" at a synagogue and it was great. Half Christians, half Jews and one newspaper reporter. Even if you start with a belief in God (which I'm inclined to have, it's faith, so shoot me), the Jews were like, but how does that work? How does some guy dying on a cross absolve ME of sin?

.
That's the core problem in a nuts shell.
Guys with lofty intellects but poor self-images expounded at length on how everyone born after Adam (flaw 1 in the series) has been stained by his "sin" (flaw 2) and was doomed to perdition whether or not they were aware of their sinful state (flaw 3) until the "sin" was absolved... but still perdition for the now not only unaware, but unbelievers (flaw 4).
The whole idea is illogical, based on the presumption of omniscience (flaw 5).

 

[I Ratant]

No, no, then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the first murder, but of course then you'd have to kill someone else to atone for the second murder/sacrifice and...well, it's just a never-ending and literally vicious cycle.
Gods are funny like that.

.
Volcanoes too!
Stuff'em full of virgins, and they STILL erupt!

 

[I Ratant]

Yep, given to Moses by Yahweh. Moses then delivered the commandments to the people.
.
Bear in mind that Yahweh also told Moses:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" --1 Samuel 15:3
.
If you ask me the commandments were not worth the stone they were written on.

.
I like that verse in Samuel... couldn't ask for a better description of a crazy man's preaching.
And Sammy killed the king of the Amalekites by his own hand, when Saul wouldn't.
Crazy squared. All sanctioned by god.. Sammy says.

 

[tsig]

Son of God is a figurative term (except to Mormons), as is the lamb of God, and the Good Shepard.

Jesus came out of God or another way of saying it is He was God in the flesh. St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to describe the Trinity. Three leaves, one clove. Jesus came out of God but was not the totality of God while on earth.

How did you come by this knowledge? Does Jesus whisper sweet nothings in your ear?

 

[RandFan]

.
I like that verse in Samuel... couldn't ask for a better description of a crazy man's preaching.
And Sammy killed the king of the Amalekites by his own hand, when Saul wouldn't.
Crazy squared. All sanctioned by god.. Sammy says.

Agreed.

When I was a believer I would read stuff like that and sometimes think to myself, "damn straight, good to be on the lords side." Then sometimes it was like, "WTF"?

Seriously, WTF?

The god of the Bible is not good.