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Official - Michael Jackson was scum

It has to do with the declaring of his actions right and wrong. Who gets to decide? Society changes it's mind on these things more often than I change my socks. Why should I accept what society claims is right or wrong? Why should I accept what you declare as right and wrong?

The society that one currently lives in, by whose rules one must operate - usually by force of law - decides. A society that other people lived in hundreds of years ago, has nothing to do with anything. If you personally decide you want to be a trailblazing moral rebel I suppose that's great, do what you do - but you must leave other people's kids out of it.

You are aware that the children that spent time with Jackson on the ranch did so with their families? That Jackson didn't just invite the kids, that the parents were present too, that the time he spent with them was done with the approval of the parents that were there at the time?

Even the initial complaint, one of the claimed cases of Micheal and Jordan in bed together, the father of Jordan put Micheal in the boy's room, and Jordan climbed onto the bed with Micheal. What did the father do? He just let them sleep.

Michael Jackson also paid these parents considerable amounts of money, and it undeniably had an effect on what parents were willing to abide and for how long. A key cornerstone of even Jackson's own legal defense is that as soon as the checks stopped, the parents became much more disapproving of and uncooperative with his personal relationship with their sons. If you choose to believe this suggests the parents were unscrupulous I wouldn't try to dissuade you; but it also makes it hard to argue that the parents had both eyes willfully open when deciding whether or not to agree to letting Jackson take them into his room alone.
 
in the same room as me without an adult witness (and probably videotape).

The 2nd time 'round he DID have an adult witness. The Arviso kids claimed the witness and MJ showed them adult porn that night.

So far as the books: MJ owned over a million books. The TWO in question were both sent to him by a fan. They were singled out by the prosecution because they were in MJ's closet or bathroom(?) (with about 10,000 others), and because he had written in one of them. He wrote a note about how carefree the subjects looked, and how much he wanted that for his own children.

He did have thousands of art books, and used many of them as source materials and inspiration for his own art (as do I, if someone looked through my personal collection they'd find some strange crap).

But all of MJ's actual porn was normal, vanilla, heterosexual stuff.

All of his homes were searched, as was his family's home. They did not find anything illegal.
 
The society that one currently lives in, by whose rules one must operate - usually by force of law - decides.

What society did Jackson live in?

He lived in an insular world where most of people around him were those directly benefitting from his largess -his employees, and his guests.

None of those people wanted to say "No, this is not the right thing to do, and you could get yourself in trouble for it".

Someone upstream mentioned Jackson getting whiny when someone tried to put their foot down with him. But that's part and parcel of being raised with that kind of money -no one ever, ever, ever said "NO" to him, and was able to make it stick. Someone was always willing to look the other way for a price. As a result, I don't think the man ever really understood boundaries, limits, or the natural consequences of some actions.

And I don't think he's alone in that. Consider how many celebrity lives might be different if those around them said "No" more often?

One sentence could change the face of the entire entertainment industry as we know it:
"No, _________, you may not have any more drugs."

But no one is able to say it, because someone else will make it happen for a price.


But of all the "someones" in his live -friends, family, employees, guests, etc the prosecution was never able to find enough evidence or people to corroborate their charges.

If MJ ever did anything wrong, no one was able to prove it.
 
He did have thousands of art books, and used many of them as source materials and inspiration for his own art (as do I, if someone looked through my personal collection they'd find some strange crap).

This is a good point here. I have looked at some pretty weird stuff over the course of my life, either books, film, internet, yet I consider myself pretty ordinary. Judging someone by the most extreme stuff you can find in a collection gathered over years is the textbook definition of confirmation bias.
 
This is a good point here. I have looked at some pretty weird stuff over the course of my life, either books, film, internet, yet I consider myself pretty ordinary. Judging someone by the most extreme stuff you can find in a collection gathered over years is the textbook definition of confirmation bias.

It's also important to note that the list of titles they took as "evidence" from Jackson's home was not just a couple of books that people can quibble over whether they were child porn. There were hundreds of titles. Both books and magazines. The porn - some well-known magazines - was adult heterosexual porn. The films were adult hetero porn. He had hundreds of nudist, not nudie, magazines from the thirties... collectors items that could've fetched two hundred bucks a copy from collectors of such stuff. In all those hundreds, the police and prosecutors found NOT EVEN ONE item of child porn.

The claim that all of this was merely part of Michael's grooming of them comes from the prosecutor. It's entered into the records as conjecture with no proof other than the bias of the people who wish to believe it. Further, wasn't he caught trying to hand the accuser one of the magazines in a pre-trial deposition. How nice if no one had noticed that [the defense attorney caught him at it and the judge wouldn't allow it] and the cops had then fingerprinted it.

One of the articles caught out the accusers blatantly lying. The magazine the kid swore to having been shown by MJ on a fixed date wasn't yet published on that date, and in fact only came out after MJ and the family had ceased to have any social interaction.

But, hey.... he was weird and kinda delicate and effeminate to our manly-macho-man eyes, so he must've been a paedophile, right?
 
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

What convinced you?
Already explained earlier in the thread; but for your benefit:

Already explained earlier in the thread; but for your benefit:


Quote:

IIRC, Jackson owned an "art book" comprised entirely of artistic nudes of prepubescent boys, and the book was kept together with a supply of actual (adult) pornography. I think this is rather strongly suggestive of the artistic material's actual purpose for Jackson; and I'm even going to go further than Babbylonian and opine that in conjunction with all of the other unfortunate facts about the man and his tastes and habits I think it makes a case beyond any reasonable doubt that he was a male-fixated pedophile. Given that, and with Jackson's regular access to and frequently arranging special "alone times" specifically with young boys, it would be quite surprising to me if he had actually not molested at least some of them. As to whether he molested the specific ones who accused him, obviously there's no concrete proof.

To my understanding, the reports the book was "kept together with a supply of actual (adult) pornography" is a subtle twisting of the facts. I believe they were found in the same room, however MJ had literally thousands of books. I read somewhere once he bought an entire used bookstore -the whole inventory, at once.

Considering MJ was rich beyond what most of us can dream of, an edgy and popular entertainer, a relatively young man, and loved art and photography, I think it would have been stranger if there was NOT an oddball item here or there.

If they had found nothing -literally nothing- that might give one pause, that (IMO) might have been a hint that he had purposefully hidden a cache of such materials. Because if he did, those two items would've been in his secret stash, and not just lying 'round in boxes with all the other stuff.

MJ reminds me of ME in regard to the books -if I turn around and look behind me, an entire bookcase (stuffed) is entirely buried under boxes of more books. The entire living room is filled with books. My studio space is filled with more -and some of them might make anyone raise an eyebrow. I only keep some of them for a single image or a single paragraph -but I can't bring myself to simply tear out what I like because I cannot stand to desecrate a book!

Quote:

Not to belabor the point, but the parallels between Michael Jackson's alleged grooming process and that of Jerry Sandusky are striking. Both had an ostensibly above-board interface that by its nature provided access to children of some vulnerability (Sandusky's foundation for at-risk youth vs. Jackson's backyard amusement park for kids with medical issues). Of all the children their respective interfaces gave them access to, both Jackson and Sandusky tended to gravitate towards and single-out children of a specific sex and age-range to engineer more personal relationships with. Both took time to ingratiate themselves with their (alleged, in Jackson's case) targets' parents and families, while still creating regular opportunities to be alone with the children themselves. And both used those opportunities to slowly acclimate the children to progressively more physical closeness and affectionate touching. As in the Sandusky case, even the kids who report that Jackson never fully progressed to the abuse stage with them, still describe this same escalation of contact.

In light of everything that happened, this certainly does seem suspicious. But ONLY because of what happened -to MJ and to others (both guilty and not). But are we going to say that everyone who builds an amusement park or school for kids automatically comes under an umbrella of suspicion? Really?

The hilited part has never stood up to serious scrutiny. Face it: the prosecution and the news media kayo'd themselves trying to prove these claims. They were NOT able to do so.

The media did a lot to sensationalize and twist events so they looked more damning than they really were. For instance: they reported constantly on his relationships with boys, but omitted his relationships with girls. They even cut girls out of photos they published to give the impression that MJ only liked boys. It just wasn't true.

http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-jacksons-female-kid-friends/

Quote:

As I said early on, I think the material they uncovered combined with what we already know about Jackson's activities establishes his attraction beyond a reasonable doubt. Jackson was infatuated with prepubescent boys. He rather blatantly favored their company in comparison even to other children; he needed to have access to them, to be close to them, to physically touch them. He needed to spend time alone with them and privately express love and affection for them, and have that affection accepted if not reciprocated by them. He went to unusual and very extensive lengths to accommodate these wants or needs.

See above. While I realize your opinion is the popular point of view, and I can certainly understand it, having examined a great deal of the actual evidence -and lack thereof- I cannot agree with it.

I do not believe any of these sensational claims were ever proven. MJ was acquitted, because the state was unable to prove he had done anything wrong.


Of course...there's the usual caveat: if something new comes forward, I'll be happy to look at it, and my opinion is subject to revision if warranted by the discovery of actual proven facts and evidence.
 
I personally must agree that MJ was odd and creepy in many ways, enabled by his wealth and popularity, traits that allow many very rich people to surround themselves in a bubble of support and protection. He also had serious emotional issues in terms of his views of recreating a childhood for himself and his actions with children. The mix of the two resulted in him crossing boundaries that most adults would not even approach. But at least some of these, such as sleeping in the same bed, are not inherently sexual and are certainly common for parents and prepubescent children from time to time. Bad decisions, creepy decisions, but not illegal or inevitably immoral without the facts of the details.

After a public trial and the popular press doing tabloid jounalism to.comvict him, he was still found not guily, so I must assume that he did not actually violate a law or do anything overtly criminal that could be proven. I can not know what he was thinking, nor do I care. I care what people do and not what they think. Too many people do evil things but try to justify them by thinking that they did for virtuous reasons. I have no doubt that Dictators kill millions while thinking that this is necessary for the greater good. Conversely I actually respect people who have evil thoughts but control themselves so as to never act on them.

As to the parents of MJ's playmates only speaking of their concerns after the money dwindled: IMHO they are the scum of the story. I cannot imagine a sum large enough for me to have allowed my own children at that age to be placed in this or any other dicey situation. It is hard not to think that for at least some of these parents the money (before and in the law suits after) was more important than their concerns as to their kids.

Bottom line for me? I would not have let MJ baby sit my kids, but I certainly don't have any proof that he was scum. An emotionally strange and messed up person, yes, without a conventional (or appropriate) view of acceptable behavior, but probably not consciously evil.
 
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Children having to share beds with other children for lack of space, is one thing. As is the same lack of space perhaps leading a child to sleep in the same bed as her parents. Very young children who may have their own beds occasionally seeking the company of their parents or other older children or family members at bed time due to anxiety or whatnot, is also "one thing".

'Lack of space' creates a necessity. The article I linked to spoke of both necessity and choice.

An adult seeking out the company of an unrelated child at bed time, in a house with numerous bedrooms and plenty of space, is quite another situation entirely; and it's completely unrelated to the above-mentioned arrangements - they are not analogous or congruous circumstances at all.

Can you point me to a source which shows that it is the adult who seeked out the company of the child at bed time?

These were not 5-year-olds from large families who were afraid of suddenly being alone in the big dark scary house and ran to Jackson's room saying "Michael Michael can I sleep in your room tonight?"

I am suggesting the possibility that 'being scared to sleep alone' need not be the only reason that someone might want to sleep with another human being. Humans are sociable creatures, and there's a reason 'Pyjama parties' are a thing. If there is nothing wrong with a child wanting company through the day, why can you not imagine a situation where the child wants some company before or during going to sleep?

These were tweens, who occasionally even had other family staying in other rooms of the house that would easily have been available for comfort if needed, that were specifically taken by Jackson to his bedroom because he wanted them there.

Citation needed.

Also, the fact that they stayed in their own room in their own house is kind of a circular argument. As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the decision to sleep alone is not a decision made by a child. It is a decision made by adults for the child.

Jordan Chandler's mother (who never claimed to have personally seen any abuse) stated that it was Jackson who came to her asking if she could let him take her son into his bedroom, and she initially refused until Jackson started crying and guilt-tripping her for not trusting him.

Citation needed.

As for other "cultures around the world" where "things are different" - wholly irrelevant. Jackson was not raised in Tanzania or Belgium or Malaysia or Kamchatka, and neither were his parents. Jackson grew up in Indiana, the American urban Midwest.

It's not about other cultures, you are right. But it's also not about American culture. Michael Jackson did not grow up in the America you grew up in, with separate rooms and beds for separate family members. And more importantly, he did not feel bound by social norms because he had the celebrity and money to go beyond it. You are trying to put into a regular box a guy who felt he needed a petting zoo and an amusement park in his house. :)
 
Michael Jackson did not grow up in the America you grew up in, with separate rooms and beds for separate family members.

Small interjection: I was only speculating about that when I mentioned it upstream. I was basing my speculations on:
-I know his family wasn't rich when the band -Jackson 5- was formed.
-the travel expenses in those early days probably didn't allow for five separate rooms for the siblings
-they're black, so previous generations may have been very poor (although I really don't know), so that more communal sleeping arrangements may have been the norm for them.

Hell...it was normal for my family (also in Indiana) up 'til two generations before I was born. My grandmother was full of tales of her whole family living in a single room house. They literally did everything together, including bathing in a single tub of water.

I'm just saying: our current, generally accepted sleeping arrangements are not universal, even here in present day USA.
 
Small interjection: I was only speculating about that when I mentioned it upstream. I was basing my speculations on:
-I know his family wasn't rich when the band -Jackson 5- was formed.
-the travel expenses in those early days probably didn't allow for five separate rooms for the siblings
-they're black, so previous generations may have been very poor (although I really don't know), so that more communal sleeping arrangements may have been the norm for them.

Yes, they were 10 children and their parents staying in a 2 bedroom house.
 
What society did Jackson live in?

He lived in an insular world where most of people around him were those directly benefitting from his largess -his employees, and his guests.

None of those people wanted to say "No, this is not the right thing to do, and you could get yourself in trouble for it".

I think this sums up the matter. A lot of rich and / or powerful people end up losing their minds because of that.
 
I think this sums up the matter. A lot of rich and / or powerful people end up losing their minds because of that.

(nods)

Exactly. And here's a citation that demonstrates exactly what I've been suspecting all along:


Rebbie went to check. Seconds later, she popped her head around the door, waved us over, but put a finger to her lips. We all crept to the doorway and saw the funniest, cutest sight – Michael had climbed into the crib, cuddled up next to Stacee and fallen fast asleep. It was an angelic picture. Michael was 13 –

http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-jacksons-female-kid-friends/
(the very first story)

Here is a perfect example of no one saying "MJ, no, no, no...you don't sleep in the crib with the baby. You sleep in your bed; she sleeps in hers. Now you climb out of there so she can rest, and you either go to your room or go play. But you stay out of her crib."

Those simple words may have changed history.
 
My guess is, because of the highly suggestive evidence of pedophilia the investigation revealed. Evidence of pedophilia isn't the same as evidence a particular child was molested; but Nancy Grace seems to be a loyal subscriber to the "where there's smoke, there's probably fire" philosophy.


Nancy Grace is a firm believer in "If I can kick up some dust I can sell gullible viewers on the idea that there's a fire."

It seems to have been a career long personality trait.

She was a Special Prosecutor for nearly ten years for the Atlanta/Fulton County DA's office.

While a prosecutor, Grace was reprimanded by the Supreme Court of Georgia for withholding evidence and for making improper statements in a 1997 arson and murder case. The court overturned the conviction in that case and found that Grace's behavior "demonstrated her disregard of the notions of due process and fairness and was inexcusable." [9] As well, a 2005 federal appeals opinion by Judge William H. Pryor, Jr. found that Grace "played fast and loose" with core ethical rules in a 1990 triple murder case, including the withholding of evidence and allowing a police detective to testify falsely under oath.
 
If he was attracted to boys but never acted out on that, then you are talking about condemning someone for a thought crime.

I'm good with that. Because to condemn them for an actual crime, I have to allow the crime to occur - something I'm not keen on.

Could you explain how you would implement this? What do you do about someone you think may be having thoughts you disapprove of?

How do you get it to hold up in court?
 
Jeez, I hope I won't be slandered in death by some soulless journalists.

Eddie Dane's music collection contained music that glorified violence, some songs about the Holocaust and Satanism and music by artists that appeared to be transsexual, and music that was literally popular with the Nazis. (Ice T, Slayer, Ziggy Stardust, Lou Reed, Wagner).
His book collection contained detailed information about firearms and extremist political writings from the left and right. Also we discovered to our shock philosophy books that were literally popular with the Nazis. (Gun books, Celine, Das Kapital, Nietzsche)
His harddrive was encrypted for some reason.

I just realised I have quite a collection of books on psychedelics and comic books by Serpieri (don't Google at work) and art books by Giger. I have the Koran, The art of war by Sun Tzu and Machiavelli, a book by Mao Zedong, collected letters from Lenin, Soviet propaganda art prints. I own antique edged weapons, African masks, a rifle from the Crimean war etc etc.

I'm basically Satan. But better.
 
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Nancy Grace is a firm believer in "If I can kick up some dust I can sell gullible viewers on the idea that there's a fire."

It seems to have been a career long personality trait.

She was a Special Prosecutor for nearly ten years for the Atlanta/Fulton County DA's office.

​

I never watched Nancy Grace, but this thread induced me to view a few of her interviews on YouTube. IMHO- what a sleaze!
 
I never watched Nancy Grace, but this thread induced me to view a few of her interviews on YouTube. IMHO- what a sleaze!

I've watched her interview with rapper Two Chainz. I have no idea how that guy kept so calm. I wanted to punch the screen.
 

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