Obama's "Uninsured Americans" Lie

[D'rok]

The same table states that 9.5 million of those uninsured are "non-citizens". That's roughly 10 million. And even if not all of them are "illegal" (perhaps here on a work visa), they are still non-citizens so why do US citizens have to pay for their health care?

That number would also include permanent residents, yes? What's your position on them?

 

[Darth Rotor]

That number would also include permanent residents, yes? What's your position on them?

My question as well. If resident aliens are given full access, then there is a potential problem in the booming business in providing forged/false resident alien papers to various and sundry aliens that is already a significant law enforcement challenge.

On the other hand, resident aliens who are employed are taxpayers, and typically on the tax rolls. It's a bit of a face smack to block them from the system, eh? (I think that's the pont you are trying to make.)

DR

 

[D'rok]

My question as well. If resident aliens are given full access, then there is a potential problem in the booming business in providing forged/false resident alien papers to various and sundry aliens that is already a significant law enforcement challenge.

On the other hand, resident aliens who are employed are taxpayers, and typically on the tax rolls. It's a bit of a face smack to block them from the system, eh? (I think that's the pont you are trying to make.)

DR

Yup.

 

[Shalamar]

The same table states that 9.5 million of those uninsured are "non-citizens". That's roughly 10 million. And even if not all of them are "illegal" (perhaps here on a work visa), they are still non-citizens so why do US citizens have to pay for their health care?

Ahh... BAC shows yet more of his true colours.

I am a Permanent Legal resident Alien of the United States of America. I work hard. I pay my taxes. If something should happen to me, I or my wife lose our jobs, and are no longer employed, and cannot afford insurance, *YOU* think I should not have insurance under this plan. I guess to die-hard conservatives and others like you, BAC I am a second class citizen, undeserving of any benefits or rights accorded to 'real' citizens.

What next, BAC? Only whites should have insurance? Only republicans should have insurance? Only the wealthy? I already know you feel the poor are undeserving of anything. So nice to know that you place me in that same category. A real fine piece of work, BAC. YOU and others like you are why I have no desire to become a citizen of the USA.

*EVERYONE* deserves affordable health care. Even if they are down on their luck, and don't have a job or a house. Citizen or illegal immigrant. Anything else shows one of lacking in empathy and humanity.

YOU, BeAChooser, have no empathy. You do not care for anything except for your fellow conservatives. You revile and despise liberals and democrats, always placing hate and blame on Obama.

You are a vile person. And yet, I know you sleep well at night, fighting the good fight, making sure the 'undeserving' die from lack of health care, or go bankrupt for lack of health insurance.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[BeAChooser]

That number would also include permanent residents, yes? What's your position on them?

Yes, it would. But permanent residency only means that they've been given permission to stay in the US. They are still just guests and not citizens. That doesn't mean the US now has an obligation to fund their healthcare (even though we currently ... and generously ... do via ERs and the like ... in contrast to what many UHC countries in Europe do with their "non-citizens"). Nor does it mean the US has an obligation to provide them with health insurance. Now if they work for a company that offers private health insurance, then that company and the insurance company do have obligations. Right? However, I will agree that my use of the word "illegal" aliens in the OP is not accurate. From now on I will simply say "non-citizens" when I remark about this. That doesn't change my point.

Now I have a question for you. When Obama said in the speech that he's an "American", did he mean "citizen" or anyone who just happens to be in America at the moment? What do you think most taxpaying Americans interpreted him to mean?

 

[BeAChooser]

I am a Permanent Legal resident Alien of the United States of America. I work hard. I pay my taxes. If something should happen to me, I or my wife lose our jobs, and are no longer employed, and cannot afford insurance, *YOU* think I should not have insurance under this plan.

I've made no comment one way or the other about that in the OP or this thread. I simply pointed that Obama's claims do not match the facts. That's the point of the OP. At best, he told a half truth when he said there were 47 million uninsured Americans (By the way ... are you an "American", given that you have no desire to become a US citizen?). In any case, your response is therefore off-topic and I will ask you to refrain from pursuing it further.

 

[BeAChooser]

BaC will start another thread on "Obama lied" soon enough.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149014

And comments on the content of that OP?

 

[D'rok]

Yes, it would. But permanent residency only means that they've been given permission to stay in the US. They are still just guests and not citizens. That doesn't mean the US now has an obligation to fund their healthcare (even though we currently ... and generously ... do via ERs and the like ... in contrast to what many UHC countries in Europe do with their "non-citizens"). Nor does it mean the US has an obligation to provide them with health insurance. Now if they work for a company that offers private health insurance, then that company and the insurance company do have obligations. Right? However, I will agree that my use of the word "illegal" aliens in the OP is not accurate. From now on I will simply say "non-citizens" when I remark about this. That doesn't change my point.

As taxpayers and productive members of American civil society, they are entitled to the same benefits as other taxpayers, whatever those benefits are or aren't.

Anything else is classism and should have no place in the land of the free.

Now I have a question for you. When Obama said in the speech that he's an "American", did he mean "citizen" or anyone who just happens to be in America at the moment? What do you think most taxpaying Americans interpreted him to mean?

Dunno. Not American myself. I suspect "most taxpaying Americans" is a phrase that most American citizens - in your pure laine sense of the term - would easily understand to include permanent residents.

I suspect you are very far outside the mainstream of how Americans understand themselves.

 

[johnny karate]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149014

And comments on the content of that OP?

What's the point of entering into a discussion with someone who flees from it the moment they are cornered?

 

[Rolfe]

(even though we currently ... and generously ... do via ERs and the like ... in contrast to what many UHC countries in Europe do with their "non-citizens").

Evidence? Of what actually happens to a "non-citizen" in European countries compared the the USA? Remember, to get healthcare as you describe it, these "non-citizens" have to show up at a hospital. I expect you to demonstrate at least one example of a European country where someone in that situation would be turned away, even though they were genuinely in need of care.

FYI, anyone legally resident in Britain for 3 months has the same right of access to the NHS as anyone with a British passport. And illegal immigrants are not thrown out of the emergency room onto the street either.

Rolfe.

 

[kellyb]

But you won't be able to *change* your private insurance (see page 16 of the bill)

I know this has been debunked....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mario-solismarich/the-myth-of-page-16_b_241925.html

and we know that eventually you won't have the option of private insurance at all because the very premise behind the Obama/Hacker plan is the elimination of the private insurance market. They told the faithful that themselves.

Can I get a link on that?

 

[joobz]

I've made no comment one way or the other about that in the OP or this thread.

Um... yes you did. In the post immediately before this one, you said

Yes, it would. But permanent residency only means that they've been given permission to stay in the US. They are still just guests and not citizens. That doesn't mean the US now has an obligation to fund their healthcare (even though we currently ... and generously ... do via ERs and the like ... in contrast to what many UHC countries in Europe do with their "non-citizens"). Nor does it mean the US has an obligation to provide them with health insurance.

Second class for NRs in BAC's America.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The original was lost in a mysterious fire, I do have a photoshoppedcopied version if you'd like to see that.

Do they have a Democratic Party in the UK??????????????

And how did that question change to Ocelot saying, "I only really care if you're non-white."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149014

And comments on the content of that OP?

Perhaps this thread should be merged with that one?

 

[Shalamar]

Um... yes you did. I the post immediately before this one, you said


Second class for NRs in BAC's America.

BeAChooser. Choosing to lie, and choosing to ensure that non-citizens are not treated like human beings.

Thank you BeAChooser, for showing me what you are really like: worse than a truther.

And since BAC brought it up, it certainly IS on topic.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[joobz]

So why should Obama and members of Congress get better health care than the rest of us? Didn't Obama promise voters that we'd all get as good a health care as he did as a Senator? Furthermore, are you aware that republicans recently voted to make Congressmen and their families join whatever plan is passed ... but democrats voted against that? I'd like to hear Obama comment on that.

Let me get this straight.
1.) You complain about the plan becuase his Health care plan is a step towards some sooper sekret single provider system.
2.) Yet now you complain that Obama isn't requiring everyone to accept the insurance plan that will be provided? which WOULD be a step towards some sooper sekret single provider system.

It seems like your real complaint is that Obama's plan isn't the strawman that you wish it was.

 

[Big Les]

tl;dr

 

[BeAChooser]

As taxpayers and productive members of American civil society, they are entitled to the same benefits as other taxpayers, whatever those benefits are or aren't. Anything else is classism and should have no place in the land of the free.

That's neither here nor there. I've said nothing one way or the other about that on this thread. As I told Shalamar, that's off topic. The OP is clearly only about whether Obama's statements are accurate or not. I would ask you to stick to the OP topic.

Dunno. Not American myself.

Isn't it amazing how many non-Americans have weighed in to support Obama on this thread.

I suspect you are very far outside the mainstream of how Americans understand themselves.

Again, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is whether Obama has been accurate in his statements. Let me ask you ... do you think he was when he claimed that the 10 year cumulative deficit would have been $9.3 trillion "if we had done nothing"? Or will you agree with me that the statement is absolutely false and is either a misunderstanding of what the CBO reported or a deliberate lie in order to garner public support of his programs?

 

[D'rok]

That's neither here nor there. I've said nothing one way or the other about that on this thread. As I told Shalamar, that's off topic. The OP is clearly only about whether Obama's statements are accurate or not. I would ask you to stick to the OP topic.

You raised the topic, son. In fact, you asked me a direct question about the topic. I replied. Now you are backing off. Telling.

Isn't it amazing how many non-Americans have weighed in to support Obama on this thread.

It's almost as if this forum has international membership. Amazing.

Again, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is whether Obama has been accurate in his statements. Let me ask you ... do you think he was when he claimed that the 10 year cumulative deficit would have been $9.3 trillion "if we had done nothing"? Or will you agree with me that the statement is absolutely false and is either a misunderstanding of what the CBO reported or a deliberate lie in order to garner public support of his programs?

Deflection away from your advocacy for class-warfare noted.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
(even though we currently ... and generously ... do via ERs and the like ... in contrast to what many UHC countries in Europe do with their "non-citizens").

Evidence? Of what actually happens to a "non-citizen" in European countries compared the the USA? Remember, to get healthcare as you describe it, these "non-citizens" have to show up at a hospital. I expect you to demonstrate at least one example of a European country where someone in that situation would be turned away, even though they were genuinely in need of care.

Rolfe, weren't you paying attention in the previous health care threads? I provided an example in Sweden where that's exactly what happens.

http://www.thelocal.se/11924/20080522/

Sweden's parliament on Wednesday approved a centre-right government proposal to deny subsidized public healthcare services to illegal immigrants as of July 1st.

The law, which is largely a formalization of the current practice, stipulates that clandestine immigrants and rejected asylum seekers can only receive emergency medical care if they pay for it themselves.

And here's an example for our neighbor to the north, Canada:

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/174/9/1253

April 25, 2006

Providing health care to medically uninsured immigrants and refugees

... snip ...

It is unlikely that Canada's current policies on immigration and social and health care programs differ sufficiently from those of other countries to mitigate these poor health consequences for uninsured newcomers. Our patients regularly report being turned away by community health clinics because they do not meet enrolment requirements such as possession of identifying documents or evidence that they reside within the clinic's prescribed area. Such problems are common among people who are homeless or underhoused, or have lost their identifying documents or had them destroyed. In Toronto, many community health clinics have capacity restrictions that resulted in waiting lists to enroll. Some of our pregnant patients have reported being turned away when presenting at an advanced gestational age.

To pregnant women, no less.

Now would you like to comment on Obama ignoring the 17 millionthat certainly could have afforded to buy health insurance but chose not to, or the 15 million that were eligible for existing government health programs and didn't sign up? Don't you see the least bit of dishonesty in Obama claiming we need to do something because there are 47 million uninsured "Americans"?

And would you like to comment on Obama's claim that the 10 year cumulative deficit would have been $9.3 trillion "if we had done nothing"? Or will you agree with me that the statement is absolutely false and is either a misunderstanding of what the CBO reported or a deliberate lie in order to garner public support of his programs?