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Obama's "Uninsured Americans" Lie

BAC, I started a new thread so that you may answer the "Personal Liberties" question. I do this since you stated that you didn't want to be "off topic" here.
So, you have a chance in another thread to be "On Topic" and prove your assertion in this thread wasn't totally baseless.
 
Kelly, can you actually prove that Bush lied about that? Like I just proved Obama has lied? Is is this just an attempt to derail the debate?
What? like how Bush instructed Richard Clarke to find a connection between 911 and Iraq? You've got someone ready to spill the beans on Obama's egregious efforts to treat tax paying american residents the same as other Americans? So it wasn't just a mistake it's all part of a plot to provide proper healthcare to all the people living and working in your country. To some that's almost as bad a warmongering.
 
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According to Ben Bernanke, the current Chairman of the Federal Reserve, the stock market crash and the subsequent Depression were actually caused by tight monetary policies that the Federal Reserve instituted at that time.

... snip ...

Bottom line...thanks to the Fed, there was just not enough money in circulation to get the economy going again. Instead of pumping money into the economy, and increasing the money supply, the Fed allowed the money supply to fall 30%.

That's all fine and dandy but it has little to do with the effect of the stimulus on the length and severity of recessions ... which is what I was specifically talking about. The Fed could alter the money supply without passing a trillion dollar *stimulus*. One can stop the collapse of banks and financial institutions without passing a stimulus bill of the sort Obama and the democrats passed. The question is whether the stimulus has or will help shorten the current recession ... which is what Obama and company claimed was the reason for passing it in the first place.

Now one wonders how they could know if they couldn't even come close to predicting what the peak unemployment rate was going to be without stimulus spending. Remember, they assured us that with the stimulus spending, the unemployment rate would peak at about 8%. They assured us that without the stimulus spending, the peak unemployment would be 9.5%. But here we are, with the stimulus spending, and peak unemployment approaching 10%.

In any case, the problem with determining whether the stimulus has lessened the severity and length of the recession from what happens during the current recession is difficult because if the recession seems to be ending then the Obama administration will just say ... see, what we did worked, it would have been much longer if we hadn't intervened. There no way to prove that wrong, even though it might be wrong. It actually is possible that had he done nothing ... had he done the opposite and cut spending ... the recession would have ended even sooner. Only a look at the historical record of what happened in many different recessions can one get a clue as to whether stimulus spending or cutting spending is the right approach.

And I'm telling you that historical data indicates that stimulus type spending does the opposite of ending recessions faster. I challenge you to look at what happened in all the instances in our history where the government didn't increase spending during a recession or depression but instead cut it. Look at the recessions/depressions in 1815, 1837, 1873, 1893, 1920, 1958 or 1979. In every one of those, the government cut spending and in every one of them the economy recovered much faster than it did on average, during the New Deal ... or now.

Consider the depression of 1837. It was so serious that 4 million people lost their jobs (that was a lot back then compared to the size of the population). Out of 850 banks in the US, 343 outright failed and another 62 partially failed. Property values that had been in a speculative bubble (much like ours) collapsed dramatically. It looked a lot like what you folks warned us would happen if we didn't intervene in a massive way. And democrat President Grover Cleveland's response was to cut taxes AND spending. And lo and behold, the economy recovered relatively quickly.

In February 1921, President Harding inherited one of the sharpest recessions in US history. Unemployment rose over 700% in just one year. Production fell 23%. The stock market dropped 18%. Yet within a year, it was over and the economy was booming. What happened to make this possible? Harding cut government spending by 40%, instead of massively increasing it.

The truth is that in example after example, one can see that cutting government spending led to recovery. And example after example seems to suggest that massive *stimulus* spending lengthens and deepens recessions. And since you brought up the Great Depression, let's examine it in particular, since Hoover and Roosevelt spent like crazy.

Eight years after the New Deal began, FDR's own Secretary of the Treasury admitted that all the money they'd spent had utterly failed to reduce unemployment or stimulate the economy. He said "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started .... and an enormous debt to boot!" Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., an acclaimed New Deal historian and an admirer of FDR admitted in his book that the New Deal "did not produce recovery". The Brookings Institute (a left-leaning organization) recognized this. In fact, in 1935, it published a report on the impact of the New Deal's National Recovery Administration and concluded that "on the whole it retarded recovery." Even FDR seems to have eventually learned the lesson because when the economy collapsed for a second time in September of 1937 ... in the midst of government spending that was four times what it had been prior to the 1929 crash ... FDR's answer was not another massive increase in spending. And lo and behold, the economy began to recover.

The truth is that as a result of this long history of experience, the consensus until very recently among economists was that attempts at stimulus through emergency fiscal policies ... as opposed to monetary policies ... were useless. Martin Eichenbaum of Northwestern University in the American Economic Review in 1997 wrote “There is now widespread agreement that countercyclical discretionary fiscal policy is neither desirable nor politically feasible.” Martin Feldstein, president of the National Bureau of Economic Research in 2002 stated that fiscal stimulus “has not contributed to economic stability and may have actually been destabilizing.” Then came Obama who turned everything upside down, thinking himself an expert. :rolleyes:
 
What? like how Bush instructed Richard Clarke to find a connection between 911 and Iraq?

Based on what Richard Clarke, the liar, claims? :rolleyes:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2004/03/006210.php

The transcript (BAC - see http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115085,00.html ) of Richard Clarke's background briefing of Fox News White House reporter Jim Angle and other correspondents in August 2002 rebuts point by point the lurid charges now made by Richard Clarke in his public testimony, his book, and his 60 Minutes appearance flogging his book before a prostrate Lesley Stahl.


http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=160225

So what did Clarke have to say in the 2002 briefing?

Let's start with a statement Clarke made to the 9/11 Commission yesterday. Clarke told the commissioners that early on in the Bush administration he told the president: " ... and I said, well, you know, we've had this strategy ready ... ahh ... since before you were inaugurated. I showed it to you. You have the paperwork. We can have a meeting on the strategy anytime you want."

So .. there's Clarke telling the media and the commissioners yesterday that he had presented paperwork to Bush on a strategy for dealing with Al Qaeda and was ready to discuss it. But what did he say to Jim Angle in 2002? This: "I think the overall point is, there was no plan on Al Qaeda that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush Administration."

Lying then? Or lying now?

And what about this "Bush did virtually nothing" claim?

In the 2002 background briefing Clarke said: "When President Bush told us in March to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that triggered the NSPD (National Security Presidential Directive) from one of roll back to one of elimination." "NSPD" is National Security Presidential Directive. So Clark was telling reporters in August of 2002 that the directive from the president in March of 2001 was to stop swatting at flies ... to eliminate Al Qaeda. This is what calls doing virtually nothing?

In the 2002 briefing Clarke also told Angle and the rest of the reporters that Bush had ordered an increase in CIA resources by five times .. .including funding for covert actions against Al Qaeda. Again ... doing virtually nothing?

Here's the kicker. It comes from the transcript of the 2002 Clarke briefing ... near the end.

Jim Angle: "So, just to finish up if we could then, so what you're saying is that there was no -- one, there was no plan; two, there was no delay; and that actually the first changes since October of '98 were made in the months just after the administration came into office?

Richard Clarke: "You got it. That's right.

So .. while the terrorist threat was increasing Clinton made no changes in his plan of action against terrorism during the last two years of his presidency, but Bush got on the stick immediately. That is what Clarke is now describing as "doing virtually nothing."

Obviously Clarke is lying. We just have to figure out which statements are the lies? Was he lying in 2002 when he was working in the Bush White House? Or is he lying now when he's trying to sell a book?

:D
 
A link to a discussion on a Diablo III forum is not really on par with the usual standards for evidence on skeptic forums, afaik.
 
A link to a discussion on a Diablo III forum is not really on par with the usual standards for evidence on skeptic forums, afaik.

Kelly, can you prove anything I quoted from that forum is false? Didn't think so. In which case, you aren't behaving much like a skeptic. :D
 
I guess you can't defend your claims on "Liberties". Oh well, at least It's amusing that this was discovered in a thread about lying.
 
Kelly, can you prove anything I quoted from that forum is false? Didn't think so. In which case, you aren't behaving much like a skeptic. :D
Wait a second, you link to an internet user who used no sources, leaving us with a bunch of unsourced quotes to make a point with? Unsourced quotes? Really? I'm always skeptical of those. It just shows you're basically operating on googlefu - trying to find any site that supports your position. And the best you found was an internet gaming forum.

As usual, your positions are laughable and your alcohol intake is high.
 
Wait a second, you link to an internet user who used no sources, leaving us with a bunch of unsourced quotes to make a point with? Unsourced quotes? Really? I'm always skeptical of those. It just shows you're basically operating on googlefu - trying to find any site that supports your position. And the best you found was an internet gaming forum.

I can only assume that YOU don't want to know what Clarke has stated on various occasions. Because all the quotes are easily verifiable.

Obviously you didn't even bother to open the foxnews link provide by the source. If you had, you could easily have verified that in 2002 Clarke said exactly what the source indicates.

And as to what Clarke said to the 911 Commission, how can you doubt what is quoted since you folks CLAIM to know what Clarke told them? Obviously you don't or you wouldn't be questioning the accuracy of the article I posted. Now to prove that the article has the facts right, all you need to do is plug in the quote by Clark to the Commission into your browser. Here's the first hit I get: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4568982/ . It's an MSNBC article quoting Clarke saying exactly what the source claimed.

So it would appear that all the facts stated by my source are correct. Of course, I knew that before I even responded to Ocelot. But what's your excuse, GreyICE for not knowing this? Are you just lazy or have YOU ingested too much alcohol to use YOUR browser effectively? :D
 
Consider the depression of 1837. It was so serious that 4 million people lost their jobs (that was a lot back then compared to the size of the population). Out of 850 banks in the US, 343 outright failed and another 62 partially failed. Property values that had been in a speculative bubble (much like ours) collapsed dramatically. It looked a lot like what you folks warned us would happen if we didn't intervene in a massive way. And democrat President Grover Cleveland's response was to cut taxes AND spending. And lo and behold, the economy recovered relatively quickly.

Quick question, was Grover Cleveland made president when he was born? Because he was born in 1837.

Incidentally, if you are referring to the Long Depression, then why didn't Cleveland fix it the first time he was president?

In February 1921, President Harding inherited one of the sharpest recessions in US history. Unemployment rose over 700% in just one year. Production fell 23%. The stock market dropped 18%. Yet within a year, it was over and the economy was booming. What happened to make this possible? Harding cut government spending by 40%, instead of massively increasing it.

Do you have a source for this? Because I can't seem to find anything about a recession in the early 20's.
 
While you're busy smiling, perhaps you'd like to explain your "personal liberties and almost essentials" that americans would give up with a UHC?

I started a new thread to give you a chance to present your case.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149823

I'd hate to think that your claim was simply false rhetoric.

Perhaps BAC has you on ignore, joobz.

BAC, I also asked you to substantiate your claim in this thread that "Europeans" have fewer personal liberties and do without "almost essentials" in order to have UHC. You refused to do so in this thread, as it would be offtopic, so there is now a thread where to do so would be on topic and welcomed.
 
(I put BeAChooser on ignore a while back, but occasionally check in on his posts, usually when I see a lot of other posters responding to him. I don't usually don't respond to him because there's no point, but his one was simply too egregious for me to let slip by.)

Eight years after the New Deal began, FDR's own Secretary of the Treasury admitted that all the money they'd spent had utterly failed to reduce unemployment or stimulate the economy. He said "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started .... and an enormous debt to boot!" Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., an acclaimed New Deal historian and an admirer of FDR admitted in his book that the New Deal "did not produce recovery". The Brookings Institute (a left-leaning organization) recognized this. In fact, in 1935, it published a report on the impact of the New Deal's National Recovery Administration and concluded that "on the whole it retarded recovery." Even FDR seems to have eventually learned the lesson because when the economy collapsed for a second time in September of 1937 ... in the midst of government spending that was four times what it had been prior to the 1929 crash ... FDR's answer was not another massive increase in spending. And lo and behold, the economy began to recover.
No. You have it backwards. It's not too surprising that you are confused considering the amount of money that conservatives have spent hiring economic revisionists to muddy the waters.

FDR engaged in massive deficit spending to prop up the economy between 1933 and 1937. It was extremely controversial, even in his own administration. Recovery was slow, and conservatives were screaming bloody murder about defecits and how things didn't seem to be getting better. Things were getting better however and between 1933 and 1937 unemployment dropped from 25% to 14%. This still sucked, but it was an improvement. In 1937 however, the anti-deficit cries has reached a fever pitch. Conservatives pleaded with FDR to cut spending and balance the budget. Seeing the the economy was slowly recovering, and that the worst was probably behind them, FDR complied. The result, another recession and unemployment rose to 16.5% in 1938.

Yes, the economy tanked again under FDR. But it did so in response to conservative economic policies. It was a perfect example of action and reaction.

Now, if you want to continue peddling this lie, here is some advice. The professional economic revisionists like Amity Shlaes don't try to mention FDR reducing New Deal spending when discussing the 1937-38 recession. You either have to end up telling provable falsehoods (like "FDR's deficit spending policies led to a second recession") or you have to try to explain why the facts contradict your central thesis. It is far better to lie by omission in this case. Which does a better job of arguing your point?

"Between 1933 and 1937, FDR spent a great deal of money and unemployment dropped from 25% to 14%. He then reduced spending and in 1938 unemployment rose to 16.5%."

Or, "Between 1933 and 1938, FDR spent a great deal of money, but unemployment only dropped to 16.5%"

The truth is that as a result of this long history of experience, the consensus until very recently among economists was that attempts at stimulus through emergency fiscal policies ... as opposed to monetary policies ... were useless. Martin Eichenbaum of Northwestern University in the American Economic Review in 1997 wrote “There is now widespread agreement that countercyclical discretionary fiscal policy is neither desirable nor politically feasible.” Martin Feldstein, president of the National Bureau of Economic Research in 2002 stated that fiscal stimulus “has not contributed to economic stability and may have actually been destabilizing.” Then came Obama who turned everything upside down, thinking himself an expert. :rolleyes:
No. Countercyclical fiscal policy is a solid idea with a long histroy of success. How long?

Genesis 41 said:
25 Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are one and the same. God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do. 26 The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good heads of grain are seven years; it is one and the same dream. 27 The seven lean, ugly cows that came up afterward are seven years, and so are the seven worthless heads of grain scorched by the east wind: They are seven years of famine.

28 "It is just as I said to Pharaoh: God has shown Pharaoh what he is about to do. 29 Seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt, 30 but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will ravage the land. 31 The abundance in the land will not be remembered, because the famine that follows it will be so severe. 32 The reason the dream was given to Pharaoh in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God, and God will do it soon.

33 "And now let Pharaoh look for a discerning and wise man and put him in charge of the land of Egypt. 34 Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of Egypt during the seven years of abundance. 35 They should collect all the food of these good years that are coming and store up the grain under the authority of Pharaoh, to be kept in the cities for food. 36 This food should be held in reserve for the country, to be used during the seven years of famine that will come upon Egypt, so that the country may not be ruined by the famine."

...

46 Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Pharaoh's presence and traveled throughout Egypt. 47 During the seven years of abundance the land produced plentifully. 48 Joseph collected all the food produced in those seven years of abundance in Egypt and stored it in the cities. In each city he put the food grown in the fields surrounding it. 49 Joseph stored up huge quantities of grain, like the sand of the sea; it was so much that he stopped keeping records because it was beyond measure.

...

53 The seven years of abundance in Egypt came to an end, 54 and the seven years of famine began, just as Joseph had said. There was famine in all the other lands, but in the whole land of Egypt there was food. 55 When all Egypt began to feel the famine, the people cried to Pharaoh for food. Then Pharaoh told all the Egyptians, "Go to Joseph and do what he tells you."

56 When the famine had spread over the whole country, Joseph opened the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe throughout Egypt. 57 And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.
 
Mr Conductor here...this train will NOT be stopping at Derail-ville.

In other words, lets stick to the topic at hand...9/11 discussions not part of that. Your cooperation is appreciated.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
Based on what Richard Clarke, the liar, claims? :rolleyes:

Rather applying adhominem to this one particalur strand of evidence that Bush was deliberately and knowingly dishonest about Iraq in starting a war costing hundreds of thousands of lives, can you actually answer the on-topic question of whether you have a similar level of evidence that Obama, the cur, deliberately and knowingly wanted to treat taxpaying resident Americans in the same way as citizens and that this act of inexcusable decency was a deliberate deception on his part.
 
Consider the depression of 1837. It was so serious that 4 million people lost their jobs (that was a lot back then compared to the size of the population). Out of 850 banks in the US, 343 outright failed and another 62 partially failed. Property values that had been in a speculative bubble (much like ours) collapsed dramatically. It looked a lot like what you folks warned us would happen if we didn't intervene in a massive way. And democrat President Grover Cleveland's response was to cut taxes AND spending. And lo and behold, the economy recovered relatively quickly.

Quick question, was Grover Cleveland made president when he was born? Because he was born in 1837.

Incidentally, if you are referring to the Long Depression, then why didn't Cleveland fix it the first time he was president?

In February 1921, President Harding inherited one of the sharpest recessions in US history. Unemployment rose over 700% in just one year. Production fell 23%. The stock market dropped 18%. Yet within a year, it was over and the economy was booming. What happened to make this possible? Harding cut government spending by 40%, instead of massively increasing it.

Do you have a source for this? Because I can't seem to find anything about a recession in the early 20's.

To be fair, there was a recesion in 1921.


But then there had been a bit of a to-do in Europe a short time before; so, apart from the US, the other major powers were decidedly poorer than in 1914. Their productive workforce had also been reduced, (in France for example, the male cohort of 1896 had been more than decimated by 1918).

I'd have imagined that the British Empire and France were not importing as much from the US as they were in 1918.
 
I have two questions on this.

Firstly, BAC, what are the rights and almost essentials we Europeans lack?

Secondly, if the Republicans seem so dead set against any Public Healthcare, why aren't they campaigning against Medicare, the Veterans Health Administration, the Military Health System, TRICARE and the Indian Health Service? Is there an argument as to why those are good, but a Universal system is bad?
 
Perhaps BAC has you on ignore, joobz.

BAC, I also asked you to substantiate your claim in this thread that "Europeans" have fewer personal liberties and do without "almost essentials" in order to have UHC. You refused to do so in this thread, as it would be offtopic, so there is now a thread where to do so would be on topic and welcomed.
He saw my requests, and I was warned as a result*. So I shall drop it. His intentional silence on the matter speaks volumes.


*In fairness to the Mods, it was a comment made in a new (unrelated) thread.
 
Quick question, was Grover Cleveland made president when he was born? Because he was born in 1837.

Sorry, in my haste I concatenated what happened in two different downturns.

First, the Depression of 1837 did indeed see 4 million (or more) people lose their jobs (which was a lot back then) and out of 850 banks in the US, 405 failed or partially failed. Property values collapsed and it looked a lot like what democrats warned would happen if we didn't intervene in a massive way this time. But of course, Grover Cleveland had nothing to do with the recovery. Actually, neither did the President at that time, Van Buren. He was philosophically opposed to government intervention. Even so, the depression was over in about than six years.

The Depression of 1893, on the other hand, did happen under Grover Cleveland's watch. And the situation wasn't all that different from that in the 1930s. And again, during the 1893 depression, government did little to intervene. And again, that economic crisis was over within 6 years.

Now compare that to the Great Depression and what Hoover and Roosevelt did. Both introduced massive spending and what do you know ... the Great Depression took 9 years to resolve. So you see, the argument can certainly be made that massive spending only lengthens depressions.

Because I can't seem to find anything about a recession in the early 20's.

You are kidding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_recession

The 1921 recession was an extremely sharp deflationary recession following World War I. It lasted from January 1920 to July 1921.

And as I pointed out, unemployment rose over 700% in just one year, production fell 23% and the stock market dropped 18%. Yet within a year, it was essentially over and the economy was booming. What happened to make this possible? Harding cut government spending by 40%, instead of massively increasing it.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/02/obama_should_channel_harding_n.html

Instead of bailing out failing businesses, expanding government, and redistributing taxpayer money with a "stimulus" plan, Harding responded by cutting spending and removing burdensome regulations and taxes. During his campaign, he argued, "We need vastly more freedom than we do regulation." In stark contrast with the Bush-Obama response of ever-more government spending and debt, Harding had federal spending cut in half between 1920 and 1922 and ultimately ran a surplus.

As a result, the recession that started in 1920 ended before 1923. Lower taxes and reduced regulation helped America's economy quickly adjust after the war as entrepreneurs and capital were freed to create jobs and push the economy to recover. Harding's free market policies lead to the Roaring Twenties, known for technological advances, women's rights, the explosion of the middle class, and some of the most rapid economic growth in American history.
 
FDR engaged in massive deficit spending to prop up the economy between 1933 and 1937. It was extremely controversial, even in his own administration. Recovery was slow, and conservatives were screaming bloody murder about defecits and how things didn't seem to be getting better. Things were getting better however and between 1933 and 1937 unemployment dropped from 25% to 14%.

Ever consider the possibility that things got better IN SPITE of FDR's policies? Perhaps if he and Hoover hadn't interfered at all, the depression would have been completely over by 1937. Afterall, the depressions of 1837 and 1893 both lasted only 6 years without any significant government intervention.

In 1937 however, the anti-deficit cries has reached a fever pitch. Conservatives pleaded with FDR to cut spending and balance the budget. Seeing the the economy was slowly recovering, and that the worst was probably behind them, FDR complied. The result, another recession and unemployment rose to 16.5% in 1938.

Or, perhaps, the timing of the rate dropping from 25% to 14% and then going back up to 19% had more to do with the Supreme Court striking down key elements of the New Deal legislation in July 1935 and January 1936. When that happened, the economy and stock market started improving. But FDR couldn't leave well enough alone. During 1936 and early 1937, he began packing the court with his own people, leading to reversals of the earlier Supreme Court decisions in the spring of 1937. And look what happened immediately after that? The Dow collapsed and the unemployment rate rose back up to 19%. And as you say, it was still over 17% in 1939, despite FDR increasing spending again.

Now, if you want to continue peddling this lie, here is some advice. The professional economic revisionists like Amity Shlaes don't try to mention FDR reducing New Deal spending when discussing the 1937-38 recession. You either have to end up telling provable falsehoods (like "FDR's deficit spending policies led to a second recession") or you have to try to explain why the facts contradict your central thesis. It is far better to lie by omission in this case. Which does a better job of arguing your point?

ROTFLOL! Were you lying by omission when you failed to mention what happened because of the Supreme Court rulings? And by the way, I never mentioned Amity Shlaes. The folks I mentioned ... Henry Morgenthau, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., and the Brookings Institute WERE ALL DEMOCRATS who admired FDR. :D

No. Countercyclical fiscal policy is a solid idea with a long histroy of success. How long?

Quoting the Bible is alway convincing. :rolleyes:

Can you actually name any successes in the last two hundred years? :D
 

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